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Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:28 pm
by George21
2 of my knives:

Knife 1: http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/7502/dscn1231z.jpg
Knife 1 blade stamp: http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/274/dscn1238w.jpg
Has the military broad arrow and SSP 1944.


Knife 2: http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/5597/dscn1205u.jpg
Knife 2 tang stamp: http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/306/dscn1216d.jpg
"Venture Slater Bros Sheffield" or "Venture Slate Brass Sheffield" or something of the sort.
Knife 2 Marline Spike Stamp: http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/117/dscn1213eqx.jpg
Had an arrow and just a 4? any ideas?

Cheers,

George

Both Knives: http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6571/dscn1243a.jpg
Both Knives 2: http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7109/dscn1242l.jpg

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:07 pm
by Owd Wullie
The Venture knife is early war issue. I seem to recall that they quit using the copper bow in or around '41. Looks like it met a can that was tougher than it was. :( Those were issued to the soldiers. Often wondered what kind of ropes the poor dog faces were up against to have a marlin spike on the knife. They probably messed with more ropes and stuff than did the sailors of that era though.

Neat old knives.

Here is my version given to me by my father in law.
Image
Image

It was made by WATTS in Sheffield, It's dated '41 but has a steel bow. The springs in those things are awesome. Nearly 70 years old and been though who knows what and they still snap like an alligator.

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:53 pm
by George21
Thanks for the information chap!

Still can't find a date stamp on that second knife though. The only number on it is there "4" on the marlin spike.

Also, is the first knife a military knife? It looks like it has the military broad arrow on the can opener but it's very faint. It also doesn't have a marlin spike. Who would this have been issued too without the marlin spike?

Cheers,

George

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:24 am
by Owd Wullie
I stole this quote from our friend SMILING KNIFE. This was posted by him at THE BRITISH BLADES FORUMS http://www.britishblades.com l Nice bunch of gents over there too.
It may also apply to your knife in question. He was referring to the knife I posted above when I posted it over there looking for information on it.
Althought the basics were similar there were some changes from the early WWII knives to the Korean era knives. The copper shackle was replaced with steel around 1940ish... your's looks to be steel. By 1945 the can opener attachment also had a bottle opener as standard. The steel bolsters were phased out around the same time (1945) in favour of a full-length moulded scale with a big 'birds eye' rivet. Or so is my understanding.
He's a LOT more knowledgeable on this stuff than I. ::nod::

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:42 pm
by George21
Aye indeed I'm a member over there too! Good forum that!

Sometimes I forget what I post here and what I post there. Post a lot of the same things most of the time!

I'm in the middle of making a website to catalogue my knives at the moment. So will be easier to provide links etc when I'm done with it!

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:00 am
by zorrothegreyblade
Been way to long since I posted here. :oops:

Been researching this, a wooden handled pattern 6363/1905, as used by the British Army from 1905 through till 1939. The early ones had horn scales, later ones had bexoid, but never wood?


Image


Turns out it was made in India for their own troops, so if ever you come across one, now you know. :)

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:07 am
by Owd Wullie
Harumph!! Those silly Indians. All those water buffalo cruising around eating and messing up the sidewalks and they use WOOD for knife handles.. :roll:

Good info to know now though. :mrgreen:

Neat old knife too. ::tu::

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:38 pm
by smiling-knife
Great knives guys ::tu:: ::tu:: . Thanks for sharing them.

Zorro do you have any date info on your Indian knife? It is the older 6353/1905 pattern but maybe they were made later in India than UK???

The springs on the WWII folders do generally maintain a strong snap over time. Unfortunately the Bexoid scales are highly prone to shrinkage. :D s-k

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:00 pm
by smiling-knife
George... regarding your second knife. I have this 1939 6353/1905 pattern with the broad arrow and number 3 on the spike. According to Flook these numbers are inspectors' marks along with the GI arrow. There must be a hidden tangstamp for the maker. Your other knife is Venture Slater Bros :D s-k

Image

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:21 pm
by George21
smiling-knife wrote:George... regarding your second knife. I have this 1939 1095 pattern with the broad arrow and number 3 on the spike. According to Flook these numbers are inspectors' marks along with the GI arrow. There must be a hidden tangstamp for the maker. Your other knife is Venture Slater Bros :D s-k

Image
Ah wonderful, cheers for the info mate.

What would they have been inspected for? Just to make sure they're in good order?

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:28 pm
by smiling-knife
George21 wrote:
Ah wonderful, cheers for the info mate.

What would they have been inspected for? Just to make sure they're in good order?
I think so. Just making sure they are up to standard specs. :D s-k

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:59 pm
by zorrothegreyblade
smiling-knife wrote: Zorro do you have any date info on your Indian knife? It is the older 1095 pattern but maybe they were made later in India than UK???
Hi Steve, checked again but cannot find any marks. Flooks has a picture of one on page 212, plate 513, which is identical to mine, not much info though. ::shrug::

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:41 pm
by smiling-knife
For some reason I was typing 1095 when it is 1905 that this pattern (6353) first appeared. Apologies for any confusion. :) s-k

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:38 pm
by Miller Bro's
These belong over here too, I originally posted them over in knife lore in the Rope Knife thread..................................... ::tu::





M.B.

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:49 pm
by Gigi62
Hi,

I’ve found my first sheffield knife on a battle field near my home.
Since I found some british knives.
I've the specs of the Pattern 6353/1905, but I shall like to know if there is same specs for the following models.

Clasp Knife pattern 6353/1905 with manufacturing specs No. 429a approved 1 Sept 1905:


The blade and Tin Opener to be made of best cast steel, free from flaws, properly hardened and tempered, and to be as thin and as well ground as the Standard Pattern; the edge of the Blade to be wetted on an oilstone; to be 3 ½ inches long from “kick” point, to be 11/16 inch wide; the Bolster to be ½ inch long, to be solid, and made from the best iron; the “Springs” to be made of best spring steel, properly hardened and tempered. The Marline Spike to be made of cast steel, properly hardened and tempered. Length of Marline Spike when shut to be within 1/8 inch shorter than Spring; and the point, when shut, to be fitted close on the spring to prevent catching in the pocket.
The Length of the Handle to be 4 7/8 inches; the Scales to be checkered black horn 4 3/8 inches long Bolster ½ inch; to be riveted to plates with two iron rivets; the Shackle to be made of copper wire, No. 11 gauge, same size and shape as that of the Standard Pattern, and riveted with brass wire. The Blade, Tin Opener, and Marline Spike to be firmly riveted in, and to bear makers name on tangs.”

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:46 am
by Owd Wullie
Hello Jean-Jacques

Those are some very nice knives. Thanks for showing them.

As for the I*XL that you found on the battlefield, what battlefield was it?

Salud!
Willie

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:10 pm
by smiling-knife
Great looking knives Gigi62. The original 6353 spec was for stag handle. It was replaced in 1913 with chequered horn. The pattern was in use until 1939. Does your knife have the broad arrow indicating official government issue? The other two are likely pre 1941 as they have a copper shackel which was phased out in favour of the steel shackel about that time. Thanks for posting your knives :D s-k

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:17 pm
by Gigi62
Hello Friends,


Thanks for your answers.
It is near Vimy that I found my first knife.
The patterns 6353, the Wade and Butcher has the broad arrow.
The country where I live was the théatre of big battles during ww1 (Artois, Somme, Yser). Many British troops were engaged.
And during ww2, under the German occupation, we had the secret weapons.
i show you other knives, and you can see these sites.

WW1:
http://www.historial.org/
http://www.carriere-wellington.com/
http://www.museedelaguerre.ca/cwm/exhib ... ex_f.shtml

WW2:
http://www.leblockhaus.com/modulosite2/ ... calais.htm
http://www.linternaute.com/musee/diapor ... nes/55663/
http://www.linternaute.com/musee/diapor ... nes/55663/

And recently, I found the grave of the small son of the great Sitting Bull, at 20km ago.
http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pa ... t_80_1.htm

Goodbye.

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:37 pm
by smiling-knife
You're welcome. The last knife you posted (W & S Butcher) must be 1945 or later as that is when the bottle opener was added to the can opener attachment. Maybe it is 1946? :D s-k

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:57 pm
by Gigi62
Hi,

I think you 're right for the last knife (W & S Butcher ).
It's post ww2 and at the same period that these 2 knives of the Belgian Army (1948/1950 Corean war)

Thanks ::tu::

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:43 am
by jntroisi
Just out of curiosity, what are the black scale ones worth. My dad had one and I think it probably got thrown out during thier last move. I'm guessing it was part of a set along with the WWI rifle....which he gave to the Ontario police when we had to register all rifles and shotguns in Canada. He only kept what he thought to be the most valuable guns. F me!
smiling-knife wrote:The basic army-issue clasp knife with marline spike and tin opener in the first part of the 1900s was the pattern 6353/1905. It first appeared in 1905 and remained basically the same until the start of WWII. The original spec comprised of stag scales. The first knife in pic 1 is an example made by Hunter Sheffield and marked with the Broad Arrow and I for use by troops in India.

Just before WWI, in 1913, the specs were updated. The scales were changed from stag to chequered horn. The three attachments to be made of the best 'cast steel'. The overall length closed is 4 7/8 inches with the spear blade 3 1/2 inches from kick to point. The shackle made from number 11 guage copper wire. These were the basic GI folder in WWI. Two typical examples seen in pic 1 made by Jos Rodgers & Sons and Frank Mills. Both marked with W arrow D; the War Department mark.

Image

Next are three examples of circa WW1 knives for use by Canadian Forces. The first is the typical British 6353 knife made by Wostenholm, but marked on the spike with the Canadian broad arrow inside a C. The middle knife is the same basic spec made by Thomas Turner & Co but with metal scales. The handle is marked with M & D for Militia and Defense 1915. The last knife in the photo was made for the Canadian forces by Schatt & Morgan of Titusville PA. Beautiful bone scales on the this one and a nail nick on the can opener is different from the Sheffield-made knives.

Image

While not an official issue knife, the jack knives with tin opener and bone scales were included in gift boxes sent to the troops during WWI. This example was made by Wade and Butcher.

Image

Please feel free to add knives, cooments or questions. Thanks for looking. :D s-k

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:42 pm
by jerryd6818
As usual, I'm a day late and a dollar short. None the less, if these British Military issue knives are anything like the Fairbairn Sykes British Commando knives (and I think it's safe to assume they are) the Broad Arrow mark is the MoD (Ministry of Defense) acceptance mark and the number 4 mentioned earlier was the number assigned to that particular inspector. Rest assured most governments don't purchase anything without sticking that inspection step into the process. Gotta make sure they're not getting screwed by the vendor even though sometimes they get screwed anyway. :)

Go back near the beginning of this thread, to the picture of those squids sticking knives near their 'sleeping' shipmate. If you have Internet Explorer Ver. 7 or later, zoom on the picture, then increase the magnification of IE to 400%. That is a double blade pocket knife sticking over his right shoulder and there's one of those big chef's knives sticking next to his left ear. Whoa momma!!

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:16 pm
by quaydvt
:( Lots of great pictures and information, but I am saddened to see that there seems to be no activity here since last December? Is this a dead thread? Or has everyone emigrated somewhere else? A Canadian newbie looking for information ::tear::

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:56 pm
by Miller Bro's
::welcome::
quaydvt wrote:there seems to be no activity here since last December? Is this a dead thread? Or has everyone emigrated somewhere else? A Canadian newbie looking for information
It`s only dead till someone revives it ::nod::

What would you like to know? ::hmm::

Post pictures, we like pictures here ::tu::

Re: British and Commonwealth Military Knives

Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:22 pm
by quaydvt
Miller Bro`s wrote: What would you like to know? ::hmm::

Post pictures, we like pictures here ::tu::
I know little ::shrug:: , so probably anything and everything. Just started looking into the British knives and am overwhelmed by the number of makers and specs even for issued knives (so different than the Swiss - one style of soldier knife per 40 year cycle! ;)

Just have 2 so far, but more on the way ::nod:: I am hoping to find a copy of Flook that won't break the bank (well over $200 on my side of the pond) to help me in my efforts as well. What are the good makers, so-so makers, the great and the not so great. I hate to find myself overspending, although I know that value is often in the eye of the beholder!

Here are my two so far. The WATTS (story goes) was damaged while trying to pry a hot barrel off the gun, and the Thomas Turner is just a great old hunk of heavy wonderful knife (WWI maybe? - not dated but has the acceptance mark)

Thanks for any and all comments, suggestions, information.

BTW - Any other women out there collecting these things??? ::tu::