Who owns who???

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jerryd6818
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Who owns who???

Post by jerryd6818 »

The knife industry confuses me and the more I read on this forum, the more confused I get.

So, is Queen Cutlery the mother brand, like General Motors and S&M a child brand, like Chevrolet? Or, is it more like Powermatic was a brand and they were bought out by DeVlieg Bullard and then sold to Jet so it's more like a wholly owned subsidiary? Or am I completely out in left field without a clue? Again.

Any other alliances / subsidiaries / etc. anyone would care to comment on and/or provide enlightenment about?

Edit: Never mind about that last sentence. I just read 'pa knives' post in the "a sm kife" thread and some of the posts in the "L F & C ?" thread. It's giving me a headache. ::dang:: The whole situation is too large for my small mind. I'm just going to chalk it all up to another reason I don't accumulate the old knives. :)

I still would like a simple answer to the Queen / S&M question though.
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orvet
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Re: Who owns who???

Post by orvet »

LOL Jerry.
Yes it can be confusing.
There are many brand names in the cutlery world, usually they are the name of a company that has gone out of business.

I don't know a lot about Queen and S&M, so I will leave that for someone else to address, but I will use an example of a brand name I know a little more about; Hammer Brand.

Hammer Brand was the name used by New York Knife Co, 1856-1931.
NYK started using the Hammer Brand logo & name in their knives circa. 1978, according to John Goins. The Depression took its toll on NYK and they went under in 1931. A year or toe later Imperial Knife Co acquired the rights to the brand name ‘Hammer Brand’ and the logo of the upraised arm with the hammer in the hand. Shortly after that, about1936, Imperial started making shell handled knives with the name Hammer Brand on them and with the same logo, (though they usually added U.S.A. to the logo).
Around 1947 or 1948 Imperial, Ulster, Kingston and Schrade Cut Co merged together to form Imperial Knife Associated Companies. They continued to manufacture Hammer Brand knives well into the 1970s from what I can see from examples of knives in my collection. IKAC later became Imperial Schrade Corp. ISC made some nice reproduction knives using the Hammer Brand name in the 1980s or 1990s, if memory serves. ISC did have the right to the brand name ‘Hammer Brand.’ In 2004 ISC went bankrupt and Taylor Brands LLC purchased the intellectual property. Taylor is currently having Hammer Brand knives made in China.

So the Hammer Brand name has been used on knives made by New York Knife, Imperial Knife Associated Companies, Imperial Schrade Corp and now by Taylor Brands.

When you look at the history of many brand names you will find a similar story. I don’t know the whole S&M story, but I think it may be similar to the Hammer Brand story.

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Re: Who owns who???

Post by Paladin »

Guys,
I am away from home and cannot consult Goins or Levine's but I am gonna take a shot at the Queen/Schatt & Morgan part of this as I think it is quite interesting.
Schatt & Morgan Cutlery was an up and running concern when they fired a group of employees because they spent too much time playing baseball during lunch and maybe on breaks, or whatever.
That group of employees started up Queen Cutlery pretty much as we know it today. Schratt & Morgan subsequently went under and was acquired, or was bought out by Queen. Today, Queen puts out a line of fine cutlery under the S&M label.
Again, I am working from memory, so if I have got this wrong, be sure to speak up and and correct my errors.

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Re: Who owns who???

Post by jerryd6818 »

Thank you both. I appreciate the information. I just remembered I have one knife book but it's not very good and I'm not impressed with it at all. It's "The Standard Knife Collectors Guide - Third Edition" and does have the information in it I asked you guys for. What you told me was much more interesting than what I got from the book though.

Ken - You see, that's exactly what I was talking about. I'm discovering the knife business is very incestuous and ergo, the confusion begins.

Ray - Celebrate. Your memory is still in perfect working order. I'm envious. :) Good story.
Forged on the anvil of discipline.
The Few. The Proud.
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This country has become more about sub-groups than about it's unity as a nation.

"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
--T.J. Murphy 2012
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Re: Who owns who???

Post by Syztems Rety »

Heck, and Queen is owned by the Ontario Knife Company. So I'd say that Ontario is the GM and Queen is like Chevrolet. S&M is a line of Queen knives. I don't know how that would fit in the car analogy. I believe Queen handles their manufacturing in Titusville, and Ontario handles the accounting, sales and CS in Franklinville, NY.
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Re: Who owns who???

Post by Gunstock Jack »

Actually, I think it was another company that played too much baseball at lunchtime, although I can't find the reference just now. The old Schatt & Morgan Co. fired 5 of their foremen for taking home parts and assembling them there, then selling the completed knives on the side. They labeled these as Queen City, if memory serves. Then the Great Depression came along forcing S&M into forclosure. The original foremen pooled their money and bought the S&M Co. lock, stock, and barrel. They renamed it Queen Cutlery and are still in the same building. I thought I read this in Levine's 3rd Ed. , but now I'm not sure. GJ
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Re: Who owns who???

Post by Gunstock Jack »

Ah Ha! The original founders of Walden Knife Co. were ex-employees of New York Knife Co. They were 18 people fired for playing baseball at lunchtime (they were on opposing teams) by Col. Tom Bradley, the company president. I guess he wasn't a baseball fan. This happened in about 1870.
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Re: Who owns who???

Post by Paladin »

Hey!! That just goes to show you that you can't rely on an old timer's memory. Sorry for the confusion. ::dang::

Ray
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Re: Who owns who???

Post by Gunstock Jack »

The first thing you lose is your memory, and.....I forget the other two. ::shrug::
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Re: Who owns who???

Post by Jody744 »

S&M would be the cadillac 8)
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Re: Who owns who???

Post by Aimus Moses »

Unless it's changed since then, the last I had read about Ontario-Queen cutlery was technically Servotronics owned Ontario and Queen cutlery so that would make Servotronics the "GM" and Ontario, Queen, and Schatt & Morgan the Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, and ect. to the main company. The workers you spoke about Ray was said to be foremen for S&M who were moon lighting making knives as Queen City with S&M parts (supposedly) and upon firing those 6 employees and no skilled replacements for them (and the downward falling economy), S&M was put in a bind and couldn't recover so they closed in 1931. The 6 former S&M employees, who had already started Queen City, then bought S&M at auction and moved into the S&M building changing the name to Queen cutlery in 1932 and Queen cutlery still works out of that same building now. As I said that's the last I had read about the history of the companies. They could be owned by someone else now.

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Re: Who owns who???

Post by upnorth »

I've toured the plant in Titusville, PA a couple of times, and it's like a trip back in time!! It was built by S & M ca.1898.
It's gotta be the oldest continuously (except for the bankruptcy) operating cutlery in the USA! That's 111 years if I'm right!!
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Re: Who owns who???

Post by vperkins »

Interesting subject, I was fool enough to think each different brand of knife was made by that company and they had their own cutlery operation. Wrong, after checking around and prying answers out of different ones I learned here in the states there are only a few cutlery companys that make all the knifes. They either make the knives for the company that has the name or they buy the rights to the name. Now these few cutlery companys also make their own brand as a rule. Sometimes it is a challenge to figure out who makes what.
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