Pin crack dirt/black

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bigden
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Pin crack dirt/black

Post by bigden »

What do you boys recommend cleaning a pin crack with to remove dirt to try to cover the crack to stabilize. It's looks terrible the black and almost seems impossible to clean that out of the crack
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jerryd6818
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Re: Pin crack dirt/black

Post by jerryd6818 »

Hey, hey, BigDen. Good to see you drop by. I hope everything is well with you.

Sonic cleaner and a couple of drops of Dawn dish soap. It's what I use on any knife I clean.
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bigden
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Re: Pin crack dirt/black

Post by bigden »

Thanks for the quick responce. So you use a few drops of dawn dish soap with water . It takes the black out of the cracks? Also how long? And where did this one come fromThanks
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orvet
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Re: Pin crack dirt/black

Post by orvet »

Hey Dennis,
I know you texted me about this, but the answer is longer than I can text. It’s easier to answer it here in the forum.

Jerry’s procedure for cleaning the knife is excellent, I use it myself. In the text you ask about the price of a sonic cleaner. I have two of them, one was a gift and I don’t know what it cost, the other I purchased at an estate sale and I paid five dollars for it. I think it’s more of a professional jewelry type sonic cleaner and it stays on basically until I turn it off. The water can get very hot in there from the vibration so that’s one thing to keep in mind with that type of sonic cleaner. My other sonic cleaner that looks like Jerry’s has a timer on it and goes off after 30 seconds. If the knife is very dirty I usually have to run it several cycles to get it clean, the advantages that sonic cleaner will take a six-inch knife and the other will only take about a 4 inch knife because it is round instead of oval.

Looking at eBay the prices on the sonic cleaner’s similar to Jerry’s and mine seem to run from about $10 to about $40. There were some larger used units that looked pretty awesome and capable of holding much larger items.

Now, since you want to stabilize the crack in the bone after you have cleaned the knife I would suggest these additional steps to make sure there is no residue left to affect the adhesion of the CA glue.

First spray the knife with Birchwood Casey Gun Scrubber squirting it in and around the crack in the area where you wish to glue.

Secondly, this may be optional but I always take it because I believe 99% isopropyl alcohol is one of the purest cleaners and it leaves absolutely no residue. I use a small syringe and squirt the isopropyl alcohol into the crack and behind the bone slab if possible.

Third, after the alcohol has dried completely then apply thin layers of CA. I usually began with Zap-A-Gap Thin (pink label) because it penetrates the crack better and will help seal the bone to the liner as well. After 1 to 3 thin coats of Zap-A-Gap Thin to seal the crack and lay a foundation coat then I apply the regular Zap-A-Gap in the green label. Even a very minor crack after pre-ceiling with the Zap-A-Gap Thin will take two or three coats of the green label Zap-A-Gap. Let it dry thoroughly between coat! The outside of the glue may/care and feel dry within seconds but I have found that it is not dry deep down inside even when using an accelerant it’s only cured on the outside. At room temperature of 70° with normal humidity, 40 to 50% I like to allow two or three hours between coats just to be sure it is cured. I have rushed it before only to find it was not cured.

After all the CA has dried, and apply normal sending/polishing procedures I use for bone.
If you are using a buffer, be very careful of buffing too hard on the crack. It is possible to have a piece of the buffer cloth catch a crack in the bone and remove that piece of bone from the handle. I have not had that happen after stabilizing a crack using this method but I have found a crack in a handle I did not know existed until I put it on the buffer. That makes it an expensive learning experience!

That’s pretty much my modus operandi for repairing a crack in bone.
Let me know if you have any questions.
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Re: Pin crack dirt/black

Post by jerryd6818 »

My Sonic Cleaner was a birthday gift from a buddy and cost him about $75 (I see it's now up to $95 at http://www.micromark.com/Ultrasonic-Cleaner). Mine has about a 4½ minute cycle time and I run it at least two cycles and usually three and then blow the remaining water out of it using the air compressor. I follow that with a couple of drops of my favorite lubricant on each of the joints. Dales sonic cleaner came off eBay, and they run anywhere from about $35 on up into the thousands.

Of those here on AAPK who have bought a sonic cleaner, I have yet to hear any negative feedback on them.
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Re: Pin crack dirt/black

Post by edge213 »

I use mine all the time. I got mine from Harbor Freight, under $40 after coupon. Mine is 16 ounces.
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bigden
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Re: Pin crack dirt/black

Post by bigden »

Does it usually take the black out of the pin crack?
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Re: Pin crack dirt/black

Post by jerryd6818 »

It depends on what is causing the crack to be black. I've never experienced that situation.
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Re: Pin crack dirt/black

Post by Dinadan »

Orvet - that is some good info you gave!

There is another approach to fixing a crack in bone or antler or ivory that I read about in a book on scrimshaw. I have used it exactly once and it worked but I could still see the crack. That approach is to find bone or antler that is roughly the same color as the cracked piece, then use a file to create bone dust or antler dust. Use an awl or needle type tool to slightly enlarge the crack so that you can pack it, then use a paste of dust and superglue to pack the crack. After it dries very fine grit sand paper polished off the glue residue. Like I said, it worked, but I can still see the crack. But if other types of cleaning will not get the black out of the crack, it is something to consider since the process of widening the crack may get the black out of the area.
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Re: Pin crack dirt/black

Post by rea1eye »

What is CA glue?

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Re: Pin crack dirt/black

Post by jerryd6818 »

rea1eye wrote:What is CA glue?

Bob
Cyanoacrylate. The abbreviation "CA" is commonly used for industrial grades of Superglue. BTW, "Super Glue" is a trade name.
Forged on the anvil of discipline.
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"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
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Re: Pin crack dirt/black

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rea1eye wrote:What is CA glue?

Bob
Cyanoacrylate glue, a.k.a. super glue.
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Re: Pin crack dirt/black

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Dinadan wrote:Orvet - that is some good info you gave!

There is another approach to fixing a crack in bone or antler or ivory that I read about in a book on scrimshaw. I have used it exactly once and it worked but I could still see the crack. That approach is to find bone or antler that is roughly the same color as the cracked piece, then use a file to create bone dust or antler dust. Use an awl or needle type tool to slightly enlarge the crack so that you can pack it, then use a paste of dust and superglue to pack the crack. After it dries very fine grit sand paper polished off the glue residue. Like I said, it worked, but I can still see the crack. But if other types of cleaning will not get the black out of the crack, it is something to consider since the process of widening the crack may get the black out of the area.
Thank you Mel.
I have used the bone dust method also with epoxy. There was a crack across the handle and take chip by the rocker pin of a Canal Street philco had. I repaired it by using both methods; bone dust mixed with epoxy and also the Zap-A-Gap to fill in the bone that went across the handle. Here is a link to that topic: http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... ir#p388475

In this topic I filled in a void around a bone chip on a handle using the Zap-A-Gap method:
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... ir#p448805
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Re: Pin crack dirt/black

Post by TennesseeTime »

As a jeweler, I would suggest that when using an Ultrasonic cleaner on a natural material such as bone, to be very judicious about it. I have very little if any experience using it to clean bone, but it is common knowledge in my trade that there are certain things you just don't use the ultrasonic to clean, such as pearls and emeralds, basically anything fragile or coated. If left in an Ultrasonic too long, some things can come out ruined, particularly if they were coated with anything. I've even destroyed the coatings on eyeglasses before. If you're going to use an ultrasonic on a natural material such as bone, my advice would be to check it at regular 10-15 minute intervals to ensure nothing "adverse" is happening.

If you feel the material is sturdy enough, you may want to use a steamer to remove stubborn dirt or residue from hard-to-reach areas, but again, be very judicious because of the heat and pressure involved. Be mindful that high-pressure steam can affect underlying epoxies and resins, as well as exploit natural fissures in the material with the potential to worsen them.
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Re: Pin crack dirt/black

Post by jerryd6818 »

There you go. Thanks for the advice. I'll have to remember to never clean my pearl handled knives in the sonic cleaner. Now, as far as bone is concerned, I've cleaned a bunch of bone handled knives both old (1940) and much newer with no ill effects. I usually run three cycles on them (4½ minutes each) and they come out as clean as they ever will. Your mileage may vary.

I should add this disclaimer. I'm nowhere near an expert on sonic cleaners so maybe there is a difference in the "robustness" of different brands and different models. Could it be that the ones from a lower price point are more "gentle"? Just speculation.
Forged on the anvil of discipline.
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"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
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Re: Pin crack dirt/black

Post by orvet »

Welcome to AAPK! ::welcome::

Excellent advice TT, we appreciate input from someone in a profession that uses this technology much more than we do. Since I do repair of knives, my use of the sonic cleaner is most frequently to clean the parts after I disassembled the knife. At this point in the process it is generally all metal pieces unless I’m replacing the blade and need to clean a lot of gunk off the parts.

Knowing the porous nature of bone, your advice makes sense. I will make sure that I don’t leave any knives with natural handle material in the sonic cleaner for any extended length of time. I normally allow about five minutes of time in the sonic cleaner unless a knife is really dirty. I have cleaned parts that still have Delrin handles attached. I didn’t notice any problems but I didn’t leave them in for an extended period either.

Thanks again for your input and advice. ::tu::
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Re: Pin crack dirt/black

Post by TennesseeTime »

orvet wrote:Welcome to AAPK! ::welcome::

Excellent advice TT, we appreciate input from someone in a profession that uses this technology much more than we do. Since I do repair of knives, my use of the sonic cleaner is most frequently to clean the parts after I disassembled the knife. At this point in the process it is generally all metal pieces unless I’m replacing the blade and need to clean a lot of gunk off the parts.

Knowing the porous nature of bone, your advice makes sense. I will make sure that I don’t leave any knives with natural handle material in the sonic cleaner for any extended length of time. I normally allow about five minutes of time in the sonic cleaner unless a knife is really dirty. I have cleaned parts that still have Delrin handles attached. I didn’t notice any problems but I didn’t leave them in for an extended period either.

Thanks again for your input and advice. ::tu::
jerryd6818 wrote:There you go. Thanks for the advice. I'll have to remember to never clean my pearl handled knives in the sonic cleaner. Now, as far as bone is concerned, I've cleaned a bunch of bone handled knives both old (1940) and much newer with no ill effects. I usually run three cycles on them (4½ minutes each) and they come out as clean as they ever will. Your mileage may vary.

I should add this disclaimer. I'm nowhere near an expert on sonic cleaners so maybe there is a difference in the "robustness" of different brands and different models. Could it be that the ones from a lower price point are more "gentle"? Just speculation.

I'd be mostly concerned with discoloration in anything porous such as bone....but it may be fine...I just really don't have much experience with bone. But I have had weird experiences with putting different kinds of metals in the ultrasonic together. I put some silver in with a ring that had a lot of copper coating on it one day...it plated everything in the tank with a pink coating of copper! I'd avoid that at all costs. I'd use it for steel only, or any single type of metal at one time.
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bigden
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Re: Pin crack dirt/black

Post by bigden »

Well boys I ordered one from ebay and it came with two bottles of jewlery cleaner. The cleaner really does a great job. I was able to do exactly what I wanted to do. Thanks guys. I did notice that the jewlry cleaner takes all the finish off the knife so,it has to be re buffed. Second if left in the water to long the blades will start to turn a gray. No problem it buffs right off. great product though. Great edition to the shop.
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Re: Pin crack dirt/black

Post by jerryd6818 »

I don't know what's in the jewelry cleaner they sent to you but I think I would stick to a few drops of Dawn dishwashing liquid as my cleaner of choice. It doesn't patina the blade or damage the finish on the knife. In fact I notice my bolsters and blade are just a tiny bit shinier with the Dawn.

Your stuff. Your choice.
Forged on the anvil of discipline.
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This country has become more about sub-groups than about it's unity as a nation.

"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
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