Outgassing Keen Kutter

This forum is for those who like to repair and restore knives, and for those who would like to learn.
User avatar
danno50
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 3657
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:05 am
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada

Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by danno50 »

I was checking through my celluloid knives the other day and noticed some evidence of outgassing on a Keen Kutter knife. There was discolouration of the pile side bolster and some new active rust on the back side of the master blade tang. It was in the very early stages, but decided to take the knife apart anyway. Probably could have just pried off the handles, but eventually want to rehandle it anyway. I need to order some nickel silver pin stock from Jantz Supply and I am going to look around antique stores for something made out of real tortoise shell that I can use to make new handles.
Once apart, there was no damage other than the discoloured bolster and the bit of red rust on the tang.
Dan
Attachments
RIMG0797.JPG
RIMG0798.JPG
RIMG0799.JPG
Dan
User avatar
muskrat man
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 5667
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:04 am
Location: Ohio
Contact:

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by muskrat man »

Good thing you caught it before it could do any further damage ::nod::
Custom knives, repair, restoration & embellishment
Certified Hubertus, Taylor, & Schrade repairman past and present
http://www.muskratmanknives.com
https://www.facebook.com/Muskratmanknives
User avatar
glennbad
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 7354
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 11:13 am
Location: NH

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by glennbad »

Glad you got to it before it was too late!

The real tortoise shell idea is cool, if you can find what you need. I picked up some acrylic tortoise shell a little while back, and plan to try it out on a few mods.

Be sure to share some pics of your work!
User avatar
deltaboy
Posts: 784
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:54 pm
Location: DFW

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by deltaboy »

Good Job catching that. ::tu::
Keep Near the Cross.
User avatar
danno50
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 3657
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:05 am
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by danno50 »

So I got the parts mostly cleaned up. One thing I found interesting is that the liners have a larger diameter hole in them under the bolsters, and the bolsters have a small protrusion that extends in to the liners. Didn't really describe that very well but the third picture shows what I mean.
Yesterday I found this razor in an antique shop and got it for a reasonable price. I am still a little confused as to what material the handles are, but I believe they may be clear horn dyed to simulate tortoise shell? I tried rubbing them until my fingers burned, but no smell detectable at all. Also, no tingling when I put the tip of my tongue on them? I believe I can see some horizontal striations like in horn? May be just grind marks from working the material? May use the hot pin test as I won't be needing all of the material. Note: the regular striation showing up in some of the photos are actually the grooved grinding on the inside of the handles showing through the clear parts of the material. These are just big enough to get two knife handles out of. I am going to have to be very careful cutting them. I am also anticipating some problems with some of the cracks, may need some crazy glue?
Attachments
RIMG0821.JPG
RIMG0822.JPG
RIMG0823.JPG
RIMG0813.JPG
RIMG0814.JPG
RIMG0815.JPG
RIMG0816.JPG
RIMG0819.JPG
RIMG0820.JPG
Dan
User avatar
orvet
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 19336
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 6:23 am
Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by orvet »

The stud of nickel silver through the liner is pretty much the standard for attaching bolsters to liners in most modern American knife companies. Soldier is used more by German companies and on older knives esp from Europe.

For the cracks in the horn, I would use Zap-A-Gap CA glue. It is formulated to fill cracks.
I am not of the opinion that all CA glues are created equal. ::shrug::
Dale
AAPK Administrator

Please visit my AAPK store: www.allaboutpocketknives.com/orvet

Job 13:15

"Buy more ammo!" - Johnnie Fain
“Evil is Powerless If The Good are Unafraid.” – Ronald Reagan
User avatar
Miller Bro's
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 11618
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:22 pm
Location: Earth

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by Miller Bro's »

Handles look like celluloid.
AAPK Janitor
369
User avatar
danno50
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 3657
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:05 am
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by danno50 »

Dale, thanks for the info on this being the normal way to attach bolsters. This is the first knife I have taken apart. If the handles are celluloid, as Dimitri suggests, then likely using an type of glue in the cracks would likely be a bad idea? Dimitri, I was afraid it might be celluloid, will try the hot pin test tomorrow. Even if celluloid, I may try to use it to rehandle the knife just for the experience.
Dan
Dan
User avatar
orvet
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 19336
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 6:23 am
Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by orvet »

To test the handle to see if it celluloid I use a piece of 400 or 600 grit 3M polishing paper. It is less abrasive than sandpaper and doesn't remove a lot of the handle material and the marks it makes can be polished out. I rub the polishing paper back and forth rapidly on the handle12 to 15 times and then I smelled the handle and the polishing paper. If you have a chemical type smell it celluloid. I imagine horn would smell more like hair.

I have used Zap–A–Gap to glue down celluloid without any negative effects on the celluloid, but I have not used it to fill a gap or crack in celluloid.
Usually of celluloid cracks it has a whole bunch of cracks caused by drying and shrinking of the celluloid. I'm sure it has happened, but I do not personally recall seeing a crack running lengthwise in celluloid. Could be a scratch instead of a crack?
Dale
AAPK Administrator

Please visit my AAPK store: www.allaboutpocketknives.com/orvet

Job 13:15

"Buy more ammo!" - Johnnie Fain
“Evil is Powerless If The Good are Unafraid.” – Ronald Reagan
User avatar
Miller Bro's
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 11618
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:22 pm
Location: Earth

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by Miller Bro's »

danno50 wrote:I was afraid it might be celluloid, will try the hot pin test tomorrow. Even if celluloid, I may try to use it to rehandle the knife just for the experience.
If it is definitely celluloid I would not take the chance and go through all the trouble of putting it on. I would buy some of these made from modern Kirinite.

http://usaknifemaker.com/kirinite-tm-to ... thick.html
AAPK Janitor
369
User avatar
danno50
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 3657
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:05 am
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by danno50 »

Tried the polishing paper, using 3M 1000 grit automotive wet dry paper. Couldn't get it to smell at all. Tried it on the ruined celluloid material I took off the knife and got the chemical smell. Tried the polishing paper on the razor again, a little more briskly, and got the same smell as I got from the celluloid material. Tried the hot pin test on both materials, same smell from both. Dimitri was right, the razor is celluloid.
So back to the start. I think I will take Dimitri's suggestion of using the Kirinite.
Dan
Dan
User avatar
Miller Bro's
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 11618
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:22 pm
Location: Earth

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by Miller Bro's »

Dan, I don't think you can go wrong with the Kirinite ::tu::
AAPK Janitor
369
User avatar
danno50
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 3657
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:05 am
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by danno50 »

My Kirinite came in the mail today. Got enough to rehandle eight 3" to 3 1/2" pocket knives, if I cut it carefully. Lot's more than I needed for this project, but thought that while paying shipping, I might get some for future projects. Dimitri, thanks for the link.
Still waiting for my pinstock from Jantz supply.
The material is 3/16" thick, however, I only need 1/16" thick for the knife I bought it for. Not sure if I could split it with a thin enough band saw blade and end up with two 1/16" pieces? Probably just end up having to sand off 1/8" to get down to the thickness I need (after rough cutting the scales to size first)?
Dan
Attachments
RIMG0824.JPG
Dan
User avatar
Miller Bro's
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 11618
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:22 pm
Location: Earth

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by Miller Bro's »

Looks good, can't wait to see it on the knife.
AAPK Janitor
369
User avatar
orvet
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 19336
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 6:23 am
Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by orvet »

Dan,
I love that Kirinite!
Where did you find it? I haven't seen that at Jantz.
Dale
AAPK Administrator

Please visit my AAPK store: www.allaboutpocketknives.com/orvet

Job 13:15

"Buy more ammo!" - Johnnie Fain
“Evil is Powerless If The Good are Unafraid.” – Ronald Reagan
User avatar
danno50
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 3657
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:05 am
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by danno50 »

Dale, here is the link for the kirinite. Dimitri provided it a few posts back.
http://usaknifemaker.com/kirinite-tm-to ... thick.html
They did not have a lot of it left in tortoise shell. They only had one 6" by 12" sheet of 3/16" left in stock and they cut it up for me. They should have a 6" X 6" piece of it left?
Dan
Dan
User avatar
orvet
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 19336
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 6:23 am
Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by orvet »

Thanks Dan! ::tu::
Dale
AAPK Administrator

Please visit my AAPK store: www.allaboutpocketknives.com/orvet

Job 13:15

"Buy more ammo!" - Johnnie Fain
“Evil is Powerless If The Good are Unafraid.” – Ronald Reagan
User avatar
danno50
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 3657
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:05 am
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by danno50 »

Have one handle fitted between the bolsters and am pretty close to done the other one. Took quite a bit of hand sanding to reduce the 3/16" material down to just under 1/8". I am a little unsure how to proceed in hafting the handles? Seems like it would be easier to complete the hafting if the handle was secured to the liner to keep it firmly in place while drilling the pin holes and sanding to haft? I am concerned that glue of any kind would be visible through the handle material? I was thinking of using a piece of double sided tape to hold the two pieces together while completing the hafting and pin drilling. Sorry, I also revived an older thread of Dale's and asked very similar questions in it.
I am progressing very slowly with this as I don't have a lot of time to put in right now.
Thanks
Dan
Attachments
RIMG0828.JPG
RIMG0829.JPG
RIMG0831.JPG
Dan
User avatar
Miller Bro's
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 11618
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:22 pm
Location: Earth

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by Miller Bro's »

Go ahead and drill your holes now that the handles are fitted. Then pin the handles to the liner's, I don't use glue or epoxy others do. On an old knife the handle material was pinned or riveted to the liner's this is how it was done. If you don't know how to correctly pin then you better epoxy them on. Practice forming a head on your pin stock before you try it on the knife, you can also buy a pin spinner, it forms a nice round domed head. I think Dale has them for sale in his store if not he can tell you where to find them.

After they are pinned on you can use your sander to narrow down the width of the handles and shape them. When you are happy with the looks of them you can then reassemble the knife.
AAPK Janitor
369
User avatar
muskrat man
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 5667
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:04 am
Location: Ohio
Contact:

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by muskrat man »

An easy way is to tack them on with a thin coat of superglue. This is not strong enough in and of itself to attach the handles but will hold them until you can get them properly pinned. Like clamping the liner and handle together without a clamp. If you're concerned about seeing through the translucent material give it a shot of white spraypaint on the back of the handle before gluing. Many originals I have examined had a white undercoat or sometimes even a paper thin white spacer material used under translucent scales (this can be replicated with white cardstock saturated in liquid superglue). The glue/paint will also help keep buffing compound from working it's way under the handle or the liner later tarnishing causing unsightly dark spots under the handles. Just some options for you.
Custom knives, repair, restoration & embellishment
Certified Hubertus, Taylor, & Schrade repairman past and present
http://www.muskratmanknives.com
https://www.facebook.com/Muskratmanknives
User avatar
danno50
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 3657
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:05 am
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by danno50 »

Dimitri and muskrat man, thanks for the advice. I have drilled my handle pin holes and rough shaped the handles. Now have to practice peening pins in some scrap material, until I feel I am proficient enough to proceed to the knife. Practiced a bit yesterday and found that Kirinite will crack. I will definitely apply a coat of white paint to the back side of the handles. The original handles did have a very thin layer of white material on the backs.
I also stamped the center liner with the year and my name to indicate the knife had been apart.
Thanks Dan
Attachments
RIMG0832.JPG
RIMG0835.JPG
Dan
User avatar
philco
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 14949
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:32 pm
Location: Kentucky (Wildcat Country)

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by philco »

::hmm:: This is really starting to get interesting..........
Phil
AAPK Administrator

Jesus died for you. Are you living for Him?

"Buy More Ammo!"
Johnnie Fain 1949-2009
User avatar
muskrat man
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 5667
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:04 am
Location: Ohio
Contact:

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by muskrat man »

Yes kirnite will crack if stressed too much. I found it funny on the USAknifemaker website they claim it's "as tough as corain" corain is VERY brittle when it comes to pinning. I have used it a few times (corain) and cracked all but 1 set I think ::doh::
Custom knives, repair, restoration & embellishment
Certified Hubertus, Taylor, & Schrade repairman past and present
http://www.muskratmanknives.com
https://www.facebook.com/Muskratmanknives
User avatar
Bill DeShivs
Posts: 700
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:57 am
Contact:

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by Bill DeShivs »

The razor handle is real tortoise shell.
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler

Factory authorized repair for:
Latama
Mauro Mario
LePre
Colonial
KABAR
Hubertus, Grafrath, Ritter
Schrade Cut. Co., Geo Schrade, Pressbutton, Flylock
Falcon/AKC/AGA Campolin
Puma
Burrell Cutlery
Duffer
Posts: 1020
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:33 pm
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Re: Outgassing Keen Kutter

Post by Duffer »

Looking good Dan ::nod:: Lloyd
Lloyd
Post Reply

Return to “Knife Repair and Restoration”