Old Keen Kutter Knives

[danno50]

Thanks Joe.
Dan

[JohnR]

Dan, that is a very nice one, hard to find in that condition.

[danno50]

thanks John,
Dan

[kootenay joe]

Was this E.C.Simmons Cattle knife made in the Winchester factory ?
kj

[danno50]

Was this E.C.Simmons Cattle knife made in the Winchester factory ?
kj

Very good question. I believe that is the most likely possiblility. Hopefully, msteele6 will come along and give his more knowledgeable opinion. From my recollection of information in his previous posts, there are some things about it that could indicate Camillus manufacture?
Dan

[msteele6]

In my view the knife is a Camillus made knife, mid '30's to 1940.

The first thing I look for is the tang stamp, if it has the little "ears", that's a good indicator for Camillus manufacture. The second thing I look at is the pattern number, normally, if it has a pattern number stamped, a Camillus made knife will include the "K" in the pattern. Thirdly, look at the spey blade, the very first knife posted in this thread shows the typical Camillus spey blade with the clipped off point (as with Danno's knife), the Winchester type spey is shown on the third page, it has a "broken backed" look without the cut-off point typical of the Camillus knives. Fourth, look at the grooved bolster and cap, typical of Camillus, not Winchester. The crest shields of the Camillus knives tend to be of the fatter variety whereas the Winchester shields tend to be slimmer, as a matter of fact, the crest shields on the Camillus-made knives seem to be identical to the ones they used on their regular Camillus stamped knives.

The Camillus-made knives will be found both with and without the "E.C. Simmons" at the top of the Keystone stamp as it appears that Camillus continued making the knives into the Shapleigh era. I've seen a few with "Shapleigh" at the top of the Keystone, but very few.

Finally, the later Schrade-made knives generally have the keystone without the "ears" (and of course without the "E.C. Simmons), and, where applicable, Schrades normal post-WWII peach seed jigging, pretty much unmistakeable.

Of course, all of this is observation and comparison (I collect Camillus knives as well as Keen Kutters) not hard and fast fact gathered from some authoritative source and therefore should be taken with a grain of salt.

JMO

[kootenay joe]

msteele6, wow, thank you for such an informative post. The information will be helpful in assessing other knives as well.
The "Keen Kutter" branding is one that i am still trying to understand as to manufacturer which changed a number of times over the app. 100 years that this branding was used.
kj

[msteele6]

Glad to be of help.

Another point that I forgot. On knives with punches, the Camillus made knives frequently have their "Spiral" punch, another good indicator of Camillus manufacture.

In regards to the actual manufacturers of the Keen Kutter Knives I believe that it goes something like this: at first Simmons bought knives from various manufacturers including the Simmons marked, so-called "Hornet" knives, these knives were predominantly from Germany from what I've seen (I don't really collect them since I collect exclusively American made cutlery), however, I have seen other Simmons marked knives that I believe were produced in the U.S.

At some point in time Simmons bought out Walden Knife Co. and put them to producing the older Keen Kutter knives. Later, Winchester and Simmons merged and Winchester took over Walden's production facilities. From what I've seen most of the Winchester knives follow Walden's patterns.

In the early 30's Simmons and Winchester went their separate ways, At this point I believe that Simmons continued to contract with Winchester for their knives, however, some time in the 1930's they also started going to Camillus for their knives (like Danno's cattle knife).

Around 1940 Shapleigh purchased Simmons. At this point you start to see the Camillus made knives (still with the "eared" keystone) without the E.C. Simmons, these are Shapleigh Keen Kutters.

It appears that Shapleigh continued to use Camillus for at least some period of time after WWII, however, they soon went to Schrade for their knives, this is the point at which you start to see the keystone logo without the "ears" (and without E.C. Simmons or Shapleigh) and the typical Schrade peachseed style jigging. Some of these knives have pattern numbers starting with "KS".

Shapleigh went out of business around 1960.


Val-Test bought the Keen Kutter name and produced knives marked "Keen Kutter", however, I don't really collect those knives and can't say much about them. These knives still have the Keen Kutter keystone (without ears or Simmons/Shapleigh).

I wrote this post relying on my memory so there might be some errors, however, I think that the general outline is pretty accurate, if anyone has more accurate or additional information, I personally would love to hear it.

Mark Steele

[danno50]

Thanks for two very informative posts, Mark. Great to have all that information in this Keen Kutter thread. I remembered you mentioning the ears and the K on the stamped pattern number as likely indicating Camillus manufacture, but couldn't find the thread where you had posted this. Your timeline of the companies manufacturing Keen Kutter stamped knives is the same as I have thought it was. Sellens, which I am sure you also have, gives dates for the purchases and mergers as below:

1902 - EC Simmons buys controlling interest in Walden. Goins lists the date for this as 1911? Earlier in this thread, Miller Bros said that he read the 1902 date in an old Simmons catalog.

1922 - Winchester bought EC Simmons and took over the Walden facilities. Knife manufacturing was moved from Walden to New Haven, Conn and the Walden Knife Company was dissolved in September 1923.

1923 to 1929 - Keen Kutter knives manufactured by Winchester.

1929 - Winchester and EC Simmons interests were separated.

1 July 1940 - Shapleigh Hardware Company purchases Simmons Hardware Company.

Of course, all of this is observation and comparison (I collect Camillus knives as well as Keen Kutters) not hard and fast fact gathered from some authoritative source and therefore should be taken with a grain of salt.

JMO

I personally consider your observation and comparison information to be every bit as valuable as "facts" garnered from "authorative sources" in terms of who actually manufactured Keen Kutter stamped knives during certain time periods. I have also always considered Sellens' company history to be fairly authoritative. I know he is not a "knife guy" in particular, but, he did have access to 28 catalogs spanning the dates from 1880 to 1958.

I have PDFs of Keen Kutter catalog pages from 1912, 1917 and 1939 on my computer, but I don't think any of them are complete. I am a lousy online searcher, if anyone has any other online references for other Keen Kutter catalog pages I would sure appreciate you passing them along.

Dan

[danno50]

Four new to me Keen Kutters arrived yesterday, thanks once again to Mike (galvanic1882). The bareheaded jack is a K2288, 3 1/2" long. The next jack is a K2623, 3 3/4" long. The lobster/orange blossom (K60466, I believe?) is 3 1/3" in length and the toothpick (K1898 3/4) is 5" in length.

[gsmith7158]

Very nice Dan! I love that little gents knife!

[msteele6]

Really great old KK's. I especially like that stag handled Orange Blossom, rare to find a KK with a stag handle.

[danno50]

thanks for the kind comments, Greg and msteele.
Dan

[CheckSix]

Four new to me Keen Kutters arrived yesterday, thanks once again to Mike (galvanic1882). The bareheaded jack is a K2288, 3 1/2" long. The next jack is a K2623, 3 3/4" long. The lobster/orange blossom (K60466, I believe?) is 3 1/3" in length and the toothpick (K1898 3/4) is 5" in length.

Man, Dan! (hahaha, he said: man Dan) those are beauties! Reading the info above on the origin of KK and who made the knives really helps me. That Orange Blossom is my favorite also, what a gem!

[danno50]

Thanks kindly, Dave.
Dan

[CheckSix]

Gents,
I have a question for you on a knife I have coming in. It's a 3-1/2" Dog leg Jack, with a Spear master and a Wharncliffe secondary. Ebony handles and both blade tangs are stamped... E.C., over Simmons, over St. Louis. Keen Kutter does not appear on the knife. I read way earlier in this thread, that according to Goins, the Keen Kutter name was registered in 1870. I should have the knife tomorrow and will try to get photos posted but based on the information above, what are your thoughts about age with no Keen Kutter stamps on an E.C Simmons knife?

Many thanks!

[peanut740]

It possibly had a Keen Kutter etch.

[CheckSix]

It possibly had a Keen Kutter etch.

Thanks Roger!

I should have it in-hand tomorrow, if you can believe the pkg tracking info. I don't think there is or was a blade etch. So, this has me wondering if this was an early one. Hopefully with new photos posted, we can get some ideas on it.

[gsmith7158]

Dave here is a link that might be useful.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... R88vIS6D6w

[CheckSix]

Thanks Greg! That was an interesting read.

[CheckSix]

Here is the above mentioned E.C. Simmons knife I acquired, that came in today. Please have a look at the photos and let me know what you think about no mention of Keen Kutter. Do you think this was a Walden knife? Etc. It's obviously been buffed and I knew that when I decided to buy it. Thanks!

[stockman]

Dave nice old knife. I think that knife was etched Keen Kutter. I have what appears to be the same knife, it has a trace of the Keen Kutter etch. How be it mine is 3 3/4" closed.

Harold

[CheckSix]

Dave nice old knife. I think that knife was etched Keen Kutter. I have what appears to be the same knife, it has a trace of the Keen Kutter etch. How be it mine is 3 3/4" closed.

Harold

Thanks Harold! This Dogleg Jack is 3-1/2" closed. So, you think it was originally just a blade etch. Would this be an example from their Walden Knife Co. factory 1870 - 1923? Any guess on the time frame other than that?

[stockman]

For sure early. I will check my research on mine and get back to you.

Harold

[knife-nut]

I don't think the secondary blade is a Warncliff. It looks like it was a pen blade that has been sharpened a lot, and reprofiled as a Warncliff. Mark. I have seen several E.C.Simmons stamping with no keen kutter. That was one of their secondary lines.