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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:24 pm 
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Luckypaul777 wrote:
wildjim wrote:
johnnierotten wrote:
I collect knives that will increase in value........I don't see that happening with any China made knives.


I am "sure" that the Rough Rider Brian Yellowhorse and Custom file work models purchased for $15 each wholesale will increase triple in value within five years. The workmanship is astounding for the price. Someone else stated that they'd take Rough Rider over the current Case at twice the price which is what inspired me to look at them. The times they are a changing. . .


wildjim, IMHO I don't see that happening; :shock: at least in my lifetime. ::doh:: I have bought 3; ::paranoid:: just to see for myself. :roll: Two Marbles and one RR toe; I have to admit the Marbles toes are better made than the RR. To each his own; but they are not for me; I can't give these away for $0.95 on eBay. :wink:


Paul


Well Smokey Mountain Knife Works has a great investment in Rough Rider and they are a "huge" reseller. I'll defer to SMKW experience and insight ; ) as wishing and hoping and denial ain't going to change the current market trend of foreign manufacturing. . .


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:40 pm 
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:lol: Sorry Jim......I just can't be converted!! :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:11 am 
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johnnierotten wrote:
Sorry Jim......I just can't be converted!!



::huff:: Me Neither!!

::tounge:: :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:23 am 
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johnnierotten wrote:
:lol: Sorry Jim......I just can't be converted!! :lol:




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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:24 am 
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Me Niether too! Unless it's German made...then I will make an exception. :D


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:18 am 
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wildjim wrote:

I am "sure" that the Rough Rider Brian Yellowhorse and Custom file work models purchased for $15 each wholesale will increase triple in value within five years. . . .


In five years.........your still gonna have a cheap $15 China made knife, that no one who takes quality seriously would ever own. You yourself said it best when you said "it is what it is". A person can collect that stinky brown substance and pat it into little squares and call it brownies but in the end, it's still just that stinky brown substance. :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:27 am 
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Hey I have no mission to convert anyone rather just awareness. I am new to knife collecting so the market looks different for me than to someone thats been doing it for decades.

Its taken me a life time to understand the meaning of "The Good Old Days" I like the current technology but America is changing and I believe in a transition that will lead to strife to regain American values sometime in the distant future. Either this will happen or we will loose America and its tradition and value. We need our Constitution and Bible re-instated all else will follow naturally. . .


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:08 am 
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Jim, the point of my post written above is simply not every lump of coal turns into a diamond. Now honestly Jim, think about it, you have already posted about how many cheap China made knives that you've bought. If you would have taken all the money you spent on them, you could have bought at least one quality knife from any of the U.S.A. manufactures, an helped America in the process. I couldn't agree with you more on the Bible and Constitution part but, they are only taken from you if you allow it. I still have a Bible in my living room, as a matter of fact there's two there. I also have my guns and my right to use them to keep and protect my Bibles and the rest of my property.

Aimus


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:45 am 
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Aimus Moses wrote:
Jim, the point of my post written above is simply not every lump of coal turns into a diamond. Now honestly Jim, think about it, you have already posted about how many cheap China made knives that you've bought. If you would have taken all the money you spent on them, you could have bought at least one quality knife from any of the U.S.A. manufactures, an helped America in the process. I couldn't agree with you more on the Bible and Constitution part but, they are only taken from you if you allow it. I still have a Bible in my living room, as a matter of fact there's two there. I also have my guns and my right to use them to keep and protect my Bibles and the rest of my property.

Aimus


Its a no lose situaton for me as I purchase wholesale a Rough Rider Brian Yellowhorse knife for $15 already full retail is $29.99 its absurd to believe it will lose value. Also it was purchased from a American distributor so the money was spent in America. Try to see the big picture, think outside the box. . . ; )

Then factor in that I really don't care of the investment I just like the knife : )

I remember my father and grandfather "using" pocket knives "everyday" and then USA pocket knives were built to be used "everyday", now it seems they are built for collectors that put them on a shelve no wonder the USA quality is going down. I can only imagine my grandfather's reaction to someone putting his old pocket knife on a shelve, he'd shake his head in disbelief and laugh at them and their silly behavior. Its just a dang knife :)


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:57 am 
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Rebirth of Old Brands?

We all know that old American brands that are now out of business are being made now in China. But are they really?

Let's begin by considering the Schrade products currently being made in China, since I am most familiar with them. Let's also assume for the sake of argument that the quality of the American made product and the quality of the Chinese product are identical. What is the difference other than the country of origin? I would propose that the difference is vast and go far beyond the issues of quality and place of manufacture.

Schrade knives were made in the United States for 100 years, 1904-2004. George Schrade and his brothers Jacob, Lewis and William started the company. Initially they had knives made in Germany until they completed the construction of their factory in the United States. William and Jacob but most especially George were inventors. All three held patents on automatic or switchblade knives. George especially was an inventor and entrepreneur whose patents and designs are still seen in modern day knife production. These men were so proud of their products that they used their family name on the product, i.e. Schrade.

Another entrepreneur of the knife industry, Albert Baer purchase Schrade Cut Co. in 1946. About 1947 they became associated with Imperial Knife Company. Imperial held the legal rights to use the name Hammer Brand. From 1936 onward, Imperial had made a line of shell-handled knives using the name Hammer Brand. By 1938 the shell-handled Hammer Brand Knives were the leading product of Imperial Knife Company. This was of historic significance because it was a successful product in the midst of the Great Depression. While other companies were closing due to bankruptcy Imperial created a niche in the market with a quality product that was less expensive to manufacture and could therefore be sold at a lower price. I think this was a stroke of brilliance on the part of Imperial Knife Company.

But the name Hammer Brand has even deeper historical roots. Hammer Brand is a brand name of New York Knife Company. Hammer Brand was the marking they used on their top-of-the-line products. New York Knife Company closed due to bankruptcy in 1931, early on in the Great Depression.

After the close of New York Knife Company, Imperial Knife Company secured the rights to the name Hammer Brand. Hammer Brand was synonymous with quality and was a highly recognized brand in its day. Imperial capitalized on this name recognition to make their line of shell-handled knives successful. It was a bit of marketing genius but would not have been successful had not the shell-handled knives been of good quality. I'm not sure exactly when I Imperial stopped making shell-handled knives, but I think they had stopped by about 1960. Now 50 years later you can go to a flea market almost anywhere in the United States and find shell-handled Hammer Brand knives by the dozens. Some of the knives are worse for the wear but most of them are still functional even though they may be missing handle or two.

Today in 2009 we see old American brands such as Hammer Brand, Old Timer and Uncle Henry that are being made in China. The argument rages as to whether these Chinese made knives are equal in quality to their American-made predecessors from whom they take their name.

I contend that the two products, the American made original and the current Chinese production are no more related than apples and oranges. There is no way to compare them because they are not the same product.


These knives are more different than they are alike. For a baseline of comparison let's use the Old Timer and Uncle Henry brands.

1. The majority of the Old Timer and Uncle Henry knives were made with Swinden Key construction. As far as I have been able to determine there was only one company that used the Swinden construction, and that was Imperial Schrade Corporation. The Chinese knives bearing these names are made with the common pin through bolster construction, not Swinden construction.
2. One of the major selling points for Old Timer knives is the fact that they were made with carbon steel. There are many people who use knives on a daily basis who prefer carbon steel for its edge holding ability and ease of sharpening. A quick check with the importer of these knives confirmed that all the Old Timers from China are made with 440 stainless steel.
3. The Chinese Old Timers are not even a true copy of the original American-made knives. For example one online store is selling an Old Timer in a trapper pattern that is 3-3/4 inches in length (closed). All of Schrades Old Timer trappers were either 3-7/8 inches or 4-1/8 inches in the case of the 296Y (classified by some with the Old Timers). Schrade did not make a 3-3/4 inch trapper.
4. Many of the knives from China wearing the Old Timer name are not patterns that were made by Schrade in the Old Timer brand. Many of these patterns were never even made by Schrade. Show me an American made Schrade leg knife, dirk, toothpick, doctors knife, and cigar whittler or sowbelly stockman. These patterns are made in China for most brands being imported. Just because they put a Schrade shield on the knife, does not make it a Schrade.
5. Then there is the handle material, ram horn, red marble, desert ironwood, etc. These were not handle materials that were commonly used by Schrade, if they were ever used at all. Even the Delrin used on the Chinese Old Timers do not look the same as the American made Old Timers. The practiced eye of the Schrade collector can pick out the Chinese made knives because subtle differences in the color and texture of the handles.

So we have knives that are constructed differently, of different materials, in different sizes, in different patterns that even look different. The only think they have in common with the original is the name.
So what are we really seeing in the phenomenon of the reemergence of knives bearing the old American brand names? Are we seeing the rebirth of old American knife brands? I think not.

What we are really seeing is one of the less auspicious moments of capitalism. When we have people who claim to love this country and to love the rich cutlery heritage that it represents, that choose to produce products overseas in the home of our traditional enemies, all the while enriching the coffers of our enemies while depleting our own treasury, something is terribly wrong.

The fact that they try to sell these to collectors as a Schrade, Marbles, New York Knife, or what ever the brand may be, is unconscionable. The fact that some people actually buy them to “collect” boggles the mind!

It is like going to Korea and having Hyundai build a car and calling it a Packard, then expecting them to be excepted into all the Packard clubs in America!

There is nothing in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and he who considers price only is that man's lawful prey.
– John Ruskin, English critic, essayist, & reformer (1819 - 1900)

That is the way I see it,
Dale

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:06 pm 
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It was a informative post until the statement that we supply our "enemies"

Our enemies are many these days and they get money from us and our allies and unknowingly to the common working person.

The Swiss were neutral yet sold steel to Nazi Germany during WWII for great profit and Germany's war efforts depended on Swiss steel so the Swiss helped the German Nazi and profited from it yet we highly praise Scandinavian and German cutlery.

Why is China your enemy?
http://www.ncuscr.org/who-we-are
http://cutlerynewsjournal.com/?s=China

I'd like to see the statistics and effect of knife collectors and their purchases within the scope of world economics. Then consider that its unknown or not published where the US manufactures purchase supplies or invest. Most likely its just bundled in with other tool purchases as a small fraction of common tools. Its really not worthy of consideration on the grand scale of the world economy.

Also it is said the Swiss helped more Jews than any other nation at the end of WWII.

The point is learn and remember but let go of hatred and fight an adversary when necessary not because of the past action of others.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:23 pm 
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wildjim, for me it's nothing against the Chinese; it's the quality of the knife. If you want to blame someone it's the American and businesses in other countries that are to blame. They tell the Chinese makers what they want made and how much they will pay. I am sure that cutlers from China are just as capable and skilled as any knife makers. The difference in knives from China now and from Germany in the 1800's; the German knives were equal on quality with American made knives; and undercut their prices. Most of the American cutlers were screaming for "Tariffs"; to be able to compete.

Some of the American made newer knives (Case); IMHO are making a substandard product and still wanting top dollar for it. Compare a new Case to a Great Eastern; and a GEC blows it away in IMHO. When China starts to put out a knife that compares to a GEC or Queen's S&M line; at a super low price; I am all for it.


Paul


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:39 pm 
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I always seem to chime in on these threads. I think Dale has one of the best posts I've read on the subject.

Quote:
What we are really seeing is one of the less auspicious moments of capitalism. When we have people who claim to love this country and to love the rich cutlery heritage that it represents, that choose to produce products overseas in the home of our traditional enemies, all the while enriching the coffers of our enemies while depleting our own treasury, something is terribly wrong.

The fact that they try to sell these to collectors as a Schrade, Marbles, New York Knife, or what ever the brand may be, is unconscionable. The fact that some people actually buy them to “collect” boggles the mind!


While I do not blame the Chinese, Pakistani, and Indian tradesmen who create these products, I do blame the importers and name collectors like the Taylor's who are using and in my opinion abusing the NAME of a product with over a century of tradition and innovation to line their pockets with inexpensive imports. The mere fact that the chinese schrade products are branded in such a way to "celebrate" over 100 years of tradition is an abomination and proves to me that the taylor family has nothing in mind but exploitation.

If you want to make inexpensive pocket knives, and you want to have them made overseas, then more power to you. If you make a quality product, then I may end up buying it (Like the Spyderco and CRKT products I own). but, under no circumstances, should you ever try to pass this product off as being a part of a family of American products like Schrade that earned their brand recognition with decades of struggle and innovation.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:03 pm 
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Adam,I agree.....very well spoken(written)!! ::tu::

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:05 pm 
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Sucks. I won't touch them if they are made in Red China.


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