Will & Finck Bowie

[kootenay joe]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-AND-UNIQUE ... 2429454407


Will & Finck knives show up on ebay regularly. So far every one i have seen discussed has proved to be fake. I think this one might be authentic however i have no experience with Will & Finck or knives of that era.
Authentic or fake, this knife should give us opportunity for interesting discussion.
kj

[Miller Bro's]

Seller's description:

PLEASE DO NOT SEND EMAILS ON THIS KNIFE FOR QUESTIONS!!!

Please give us a call..

Kip 913 940-2012 or Kevin 913 940-5151


RARE AND UNIQUE SILVER MOUNTED KNIFE MADE BY WILL & FINCK IN THE EARLY 1800’S - BOWIE STYLE HUNTING KNIFE IN ITS ORIGINAL PRESENTATION BOX.
Operating out of San Francisco, Will & Finck manufactured a wide variety of knives, and are associated with the California Gold Rush.

This Knife is 12 ½” Overall, it has 8 ¼” point blade that is nearly 1 ½” at its widest point and has a 3 ½” sharpened clip. The spine of the blade is nearly a ¼” thick Steel blade is Maker Marked on the ricasso with circles and "Will & Finck/S.F. Cal". Made with an Oval Silver Cross Guard that appears to be made of Sterling Silver. Handle attached to Sterling Silver. We were told the material on the handle is over 150 years old. The leather scabbard is made for a knife with a Cross Guard and has stamping on the front of what also appears to be Sterling Silver.

CONDITION: Tarnished patina on the top of scabbard as well as on the Cross Guard. Blade showing grey patina with few marks other than those pictured. Hilt is fine and the handle has taken on a wonderful natural patina. Scabbard has minor scuffs and natural wear, but leather is very soft and in great shape with no stitching missing and is solid built.
Presentation box is in solid condition with obvious loss of covering of the outside of the box as pictured.

We were told this knife was given as a presentation knife and was presented in the original presentation box that is also included. We have had several knife collectors look at this knife and valued it as high as $30,000. We are selling it not knowing exactly what is worth because we are not knife collectors. We reserve the right to sell locally and end the listing early. If you are interested in the knife, then please make your bid.

The knife is fake. The box is real, however it probably held a carving knife and fork set, not a Bowie knife, note the material on the underside of the top lid which still has the outlines of the items stored inside , different from the material on the bottom which is not original.

[kootenay joe]

Thanks for your input D.
Keen eye on your part to see that the storage case is not original to the knife, however that does not prove anything about the knife itself.
It is possible that many years ago the owner of this knife came across and acquired the presentation box. He then decided to call his bowie a "Presentation" knife and kept in this case in the hopes of selling it for more money. This could have happened recently or 100 years ago.
I am not making a case for the knife being authentic. We need comments on the knife itself to help decide this, so please take a close look and post your observations.
kj

[Miller Bro's]

I am not making a case for the knife being authentic. We need comments on the knife itself to help decide this, so please take a close look and post your observations.

I did take a close look, I got as far as the tang stamp. Not the style and font used on an original knife from the 19th century, blade has been artificially aged to look old. I didn't bother to go any further.

[Miller Bro's]

Here's a real knife, I wouldn't call it a Bowie but:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/LARGE-ANTIQUE-BO ... Sw4A5YrQI8

Here's another real hunting knife.

[kootenay joe]

Thanks Dimitri. I didn't doubt you, i just wanted more info, something for me to learn; so thanks for taking the time to fill us in a little.
kj

[joshuadrew1014]

Thoughts, opinions, questions or concerns are all welcome. Thanks for looking.

[btrwtr]

Artificially aged blade and knife not at all in the style of what an original W&F knife would be.

[1967redrider]

I'm always weary about knives with that horse pommel, too many recent reproductions.

[celluloidheros]

There was a Greg Martin Auction a few years ago where they auctioned off a Burkinshaw knife display case filled with knives. they had quite a few Will/Finck and M Price knives. I believe that most of these were real but I'm not 100% sure. Bernie Levine is my go to guy for West Coast marks.

The catalogue is one of the most beautiful that I've ever seen.

The cover has 2 WF and 1 M. Price

[celluloidheros]

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/275081473856?ha ... SwhbdfTlvE

I suspect that 99% of the WF objects we see are fake.

[celluloidheros]

Here's a real knife, I wouldn't call it a Bowie but:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/LARGE-ANTIQUE-BO ... Sw4A5YrQI8


Here's another real hunting knife.

Are you saying that both these knives are real WF's ?

[kootenay joe]

cell, is the above dagger (with garter) an authentic Will & Finck ?
The seller states "we have auction history of this knife all the way back to day one. It is our belief these were novelty items from the Gay 90s."
Regarding the fake Will & Finck knives, are most of relatively recent origin ? Or might some of these fakes be 75 or even 100 years old ?
Thanks to anyone who can help me understand these knives better.
kj

[BWT]

I learned my lesson about three years or so ago. Luckily I posted my fake here on AAPK and several members informed me about it and suggested emailing Bernard Levine. It was a fake and I was able to return it and saved me a bunch. The display box was even faked. Thanks guys

[celluloidheros]

cell, is the above dagger (with garter) an authentic Will & Finck ?
The seller states "we have auction history of this knife all the way back to day one. It is our belief these were novelty items from the Gay 90s."
Regarding the fake Will & Finck knives, are most of relatively recent origin ? Or might some of these fakes be 75 or even 100 years old ?
Thanks to anyone who can help me understand these knives better.
kj

Hello, The Dagger is a Fake. I believe that the knives in the Auction were real but before buying any M. Price or W. & F. item I would contact Bernie Levine. I am not sure when the fakes were made but anything that is valuable will be faked. I would guess that many of the fakes were made Post 1980. If you notice where the Ebay sellers are located it tells you what area to stay out of buying these type of knives.

I would love to hold more real WF knives in my hands. I guess going to gun shows and knowing the right people is one way.

If the dagger was real It would sell for a lot more than 1500 and would sell instantly.

Here are two more fakes, this seller obviously knows what's going on.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/265412945306?_t ... 101224.m-1


https://www.ebay.ca/itm/255136543040?_t ... 101224.m-1

[kootenay joe]

Thanks DC. I was seriously considering a snipe bid on the W & F dagger. The seller's description claims it's history is known right from the beginning and it is confirmed to be authentic. I am a sucker who tends to believe what people say or write is truthful, particularly if it is expressed clearly.
So thank you for saving me from winning a fake W & F dagger.
Bernard Levine is now quite elderly. I had thought that he no longer did 'consults' ?
As W & F knives were highly thought of even in early 1900's i have wondered if there were 'craftsmen' who created copies of real W & F knives 100 years ago. If this did occur these fakes would now be naturally aged and perhaps harder to ID as fake.
kj

[celluloidheros]

Bernie is 74, he was born in 1947. https://www.knife-expert.com/ still around

I would not bid on any of the WF knives on ebay. they are all fake. i you want to see real knives, i will send you a picture. i don't think the two knives that Miller bros posted are real. M price and Will Finck knives were very expensive back in the day. And yes people may have been faking them back in 1900, but more common in the past 50 years as collectables.

Bernie would be the man to ask.

[kootenay joe]

Thank you DC. I had thought Bernard was at least a decade older than 74. I read a post years ago saying Mr. Levine was in a state of 'mental decline' due to age. I now realize it was possibly purposeful slander. I am very happy to hear that Mr. Levine is doing well. I had a number of online 'chats' with him on BF about 15 years ago.
kj

[Ripster]

Bernie is 74, he was born in 1947. https://www.knife-expert.com/ still around

I would not bid on any of the WF knives on ebay. they are all fake. i you want to see real knives, i will send you a picture. i don't think the two knives that Miller bros posted are real. M price and Will Finck knives were very expensive back in the day. And yes people may have been faking them back in 1900, but more common in the past 50 years as collectables.

Bernie would be the man to ask.

That’s a pretty bold statement ! Could you tell us why you think they’re fake rather than a blanket statement. Miller Bros is very knowledgeable and I highly respect the man and don’t think he would post a fake knife without saying something .
Would appreciate it. Thanks

[celluloidheros]

Bernie is 74, he was born in 1947. https://www.knife-expert.com/ still around

I would not bid on any of the WF knives on ebay. they are all fake. i you want to see real knives, i will send you a picture. i don't think the two knives that Miller bros posted are real. M price and Will Finck knives were very expensive back in the day. And yes people may have been faking them back in 1900, but more common in the past 50 years as collectables.

Bernie would be the man to ask.

That’s a pretty bold statement ! Could you tell us why you think they’re fake rather than a blanket statement. Miller Bros is very knowledgeable and I highly respect the man and don’t think he would post a fake knife without saying something .
Would appreciate it. Thanks

Ok you are right, They could be real. I'm not a wf expert and I am human. I just assume all WF's are fakes until proven otherwise. But as I research these two they look real. My Bad.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/wil ... k.1729050/

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/seaso ... 200304A15/

https://www.marks4antiques.com/apa/A-Sa ... e-by-daf44

https://www.marks4antiques.com/apa/A-Sa ... amp--daf46

[celluloidheros]

Take A look at these. Anyone think they are real ?


https://www.ebay.com/itm/393844211959?h ... Sweyxh1J1T

https://www.ebay.com/itm/363658128845?h ... SwYExhupFa

https://www.ebay.com/itm/203776815655?h ... Swov5htNqj

https://www.ebay.com/itm/283394317120?h ... SwTGNccpvS

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265412945306?h ... SwS2hc-lPP

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255136543040?h ... SwK5tcFQfo

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265409811073?h ... SwJzFhVc1o

[1967redrider]

What's your opinion about this one?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/134068436196

[kootenay joe]

Seller states he believes it is a "reproduction".
kj