Grading and Authentication

[CheckSix]

Howdy knifers!
As most of you know, I'm new here and new to the hobby. But... I've participated in other hobbies that have high value items and collectability. What I'm curious about is, if in the knife collecting hobby, whether anyone has setup an officially recognized authentication service, that also includes grading to a standard? This would filter out the counterfeits and standardize the knife grading. Anyone buying a high dollar knife, would only buy a knife that has been officially authenticated.

Other hobbies have similar counterfeit problems, one in particular is the vintage guitar market. Coin collectors have taken on the problem with standard grading services. I'm sure there are other examples.

What could we do to put a hurt on these unscrupulous purveyors of fraud?

[just bob]

The thing about grading a coin, token, or even a baseball card is that you have to encapsulate the object. This is done so the object can not be handled or tampered with after grading and thus change the grade of the item. This may be practical for those type of items but how do you encapsulate a pocket knife where potential buyers could open and close it to check on blade snap and tightness? Also would encapsulation contribute to outgassing? I agree that most knives sold n/m are no where near that grade and like the others it irks me to see knowledgeable knife people selling knives that have been buffed and polished to n/m condition. There are no uniform standards.

[btrwtr]

There is no grading and authentication standard that I am aware of.

In my experience you have to adopt your own standard and then apply that to each knife you evaluate. What I think is near mint and the next guy thinks (or wishes) is often very different. I tend to agree with what the NKCA definitions are.

Scroll down here https://books.google.com/books?id=E6NZd ... rd&f=false

[CheckSix]

It would seem to me, to help protect the hobby and newcomers from getting burned, there should be an effort put in to creating a way to authenticate and standardize the grading. They do it for high end collectable cars. You don't have to encapsulate the item. And with cars, original survivors with no restoration, are the most highly valued. They also do an extensive inspection for authenticity.

All collectable item hobbies have had a problem with fraud and fakes. Most of the hobbies have dealt with it and instituted controls to stem the problem. Apparently, knife collecting hasn't caught up yet.

Seeing this endless stream of eBay knife fraud auctions infuriates me. Something needs to be done but I don't know enough to be able to do anything. What does NKCA do? I was just on their website and from I can see, they don't appear to address this issue. They defer on Appraisals and that they don't do them ...and that one should seek a knowledgeable knife expert. I would think as a collector association with a yearly membership fee, that they should be addressing the counterfeit and fraud aspect that is poisoning the waters. just my humble opinion,

[just bob]

I don't understand how you would grade a car? Couldn't the car be scratched while loading/unloading and change it's value tremendously? Couldn't it be taken for a test drive and suffer damage from a high speed spin? The reason you encapsulate items is so they receive a permanent grade as to condition. The value of a baseball card can be affected tremendously by the bending of a single corner. By encapsulating the card you ensure the condition of the card will not change. If a knife is graded and then dropped and the handle is chipped does that not change the value of it greatly?
The knife community is generally very friendly. You can take your knives to a knife show and get an opinion as to condition, but if you drop the knife on the way back to the parking lot that opinion is worthless. Many times a knife dealer will tell you Jim Parker or another authority said this or that about the knife, but that actually means nothing. Unless a knife is housed in a tamper proof / damage proof container it's condition is subject to change.

[CheckSix]

Here's an example for cars. https://www.bloomingtongold.com/index.p ... tification
It's being done successfully and for decades. Prior, there was a lot of fraud and deceit. I'm not saying we as knife collectors need to exactly follow this, I'm only showing this as an example of how it's done without encapsulation. It's done with a thorough report and photographs.

Totally understand coins and sports cards.

Bottom line is... I think the knife gurus need to do something to protect the hobby and stop or slow down the miscreants taking advantage of ignorance.

[olderdogs1]

Actually knife authentication is not new, Perry Miller used to authenticate Randal knives. I think most authentication in knives normally deals with whether the knife is a counterfeit or genuine. The NKCA doesn't exist anymore so they can't help. I agree that condition is very subjective. An authentication would be only as good as the expertise of the guy signing it. There are a lot of disagreements even between the recognized experts with regard to knives.

Tom

[KnifeSlinger#81]

Even if there was a surefire way to authenticate and grade all knives, implementing that would be very difficult. The people selling counterfeits won't stop and the people who buy them could prevent being fooled by a minuscule amount of research that they don't seem to do. For this reason I don't think an authentication system would do much good.

[deo-pa]

One thing we could all do that might help a little over time would be to add something like the following to the end of every knife listing we put on eBay:

Be aware that far too many counterfeit knives are sold to unsuspecting collectors. The knife collectors website called "All About Pocket Knives" has a forum devoted to identifying counterfeits and educating collectors on the telltale signs that a knife is fake. Visit the site and the 'Counterfeit Watch" forum, read the comments, ask questions, and make your own judgements about authenticity.

If folks see this enough times maybe they will get the message and become smarter collectors.

Dennis

[CheckSix]

That's a good idea Dennis! Thanks!

[btrwtr]

One thing we could all do that might help a little over time would be to add something like the following to the end of every knife listing we put on eBay:

Be aware that far too many counterfeit knives are sold to unsuspecting collectors. The knife collectors website called "All About Pocket Knives" has a forum devoted to identifying counterfeits and educating collectors on the telltale signs that a knife is fake. Visit the site and the 'Counterfeit Watch" forum, read the comments, ask questions, and make your own judgements about authenticity.

If folks see this enough times maybe they will get the message and become smarter collectors.

Dennis

Good Idea!

[FRJ]

I like that concept.

[KnifeSlinger#81]

Count me in Dennis.

[RobesonsRme.com]

Bruce Voyles published a grading guide, with illustrations, in his American Blade Collectors Association Price Guide To Antique Knives on pages 20 through 27.

It's a bit different than the NKCA guidelines.

The book is out of print, but can be found occasionally on Ebay or Amazon.

Charlie Noyes

[kootenay joe]

It is not possible to create a comprehensive 'Knife Authentication Guide" because there are so many legitimate undocumented variations.
Knife companies were famous for wasting nothing so 'mix & match' occurred. If towards the end of a knife run they ran out of a certain blade, they would have completed the run with perhaps a blade of same profile/tang fit/etc., but with different markings on it. Customers didn't mind, likely didn't notice. They were buying a tool to use, not to closely examine and ponder about.
When you consider all the USA manufacturers of folding knives and all the millions(?) of runs they did, the possibility for legitimate variation is huge.
I see fakes as a challenge to my knife knowledge. If every knife was exactly what it was claimed to be we would not have to learn anything. The presence of fakes requires a serious collector to immerse himself deeply into the vast body of knowledge that encompasses 'knives' and then make your own informed decision and/or ask other collectors for their opinion.
Fakes add a level of intrigue and require us to become "Forensic Knifeologists" to make wise choices.
Way funner than just buying a knife with no input other than money required.
kj

[cbfd]

Well said KJ. Bill