Empire, Winsted, CT

[merlechris]

This is another knife I inherited, can't say I've ever seen anything like it. Looks modern. 3 7/8" long. Any opinions? Thanks.

[FRJ]

I don't have a lot of experience with Empire knives. I've got a few. What I can make of the blurry tang stamp photo it seems like a good stamp.
Do you think it's a counterfeit?

[btrwtr]

Looks modern to me also. Just one tang stamped? Unusual. Not sure whats going on with the interior view of the master blade but looks like a lot of deep corrosion with clean blades, again unusual. Unusual looking knife. Looks more like a recent German import.

Wayne

[merlechris]

Hopefully a much better image of the stamping. And just the one stamp on the main blade, nothing on the secondary. I though I'd seen something like this before in one of the forums? Thanks.

[btrwtr]

merlechris, what do you make of the stamp?

In addition to what I posted above.

The pen blade (with no stamp??) pull looks pretty large for a knife made 1930 or earlier.

The lack of a shield on this supposed age celluloid ? handle knife of this brand is unusual.

Handle material is also looks unusual. Does anyone have anything to compare this material to?

Sometimes unusual can be a very good thing leading to a very rare old knife. In this case I think unusual isn't so good. A lot that doesn't look right.

Wayne

[merlechris]

Thanks for your observations. I hate looking at stamps because I tend to over focus on that part of the knife and miss other signs/issues. But in this case, the stamp doesn't look stamped, more engraved when compared to an original older knife. Hopefully someone will have a more definitive answer. Thanks, Merle

[FRJ]

Here's my Empire with both stamps. Looks like the same stamp hit both tangs. (on my knife)

[orvet]

I agree, it looks like a more modern knife.
They handles look like some sort of burl wood. Not something I've seen on a knife of that age.
Cocobolo or Ebony wood would have been used in those days but not a burl wood.

Notice where the long pull begins on your knife, right at the tang. Then look at the knife Joe posted, the long pull begins considerably above the tang. That raises questions in my mind.

Although the views are different and there really isn't much kick to the pin blade on either knife, they do look different. The fact that your knife is not stamped on the pin blade raises a red flag for me and the kick looks different to, especially at the grind line. The grind line on your knife is much more finished than it is on Joe's old knife.

I agree the overall style and design of the knife looks much newer than the 1930s.

[msteele6]

Hate to be disagreeable but nothing about this knife looks modern to me. The handles appear to be celluloid (Bakelite?). Notice the long pull on the master, the way it almost cuts into the tang and almost into the swedge, something that is often seen on old knives. Notice also the rat tailed cap and bolster, another old detail. The lack of a tang stamp on the secondary is a little worrisome.

The knife may well have been cleaned and apparently hasn't been used much, but it really doesn't look modern to me.

Hopefully someone more knowledgable will come along (does Miller Bro's collect Empire?).

JMO

[glennbad]

Wow, this knife is a head scratcher

The long pull nail nick looks sloppy, but that may be that the front edge may have been cleaned up, lowering the spine some. The thing that bothers me is the main spring in the well. That's quite rough from what I am used to seeing in knives of that vintage.

It has all the elements of a vintage knife, but they just don't seem like they all go together right.

But hey, what the heck do I know...

[btrwtr]

I think it may be a Frankenknife. I've been wrong before but it just doesn't add up for me. Like glennbad said that main spring is troublesome. I really don't like the profile of the main blade either. Of coarse it could well have been reshaped at some point.

It does look a lot like a picked bone handled German jack knife I once had right down to the bolsters and frame shape. Can't remember the brand.

Don't ever recall seeing a celluloid quite like that but it does have a nice vintage look to it.

Merle, is it really as yellow as it looks in the pictures? The celluloid looks more like this razor than anything else but not quite the same.

Wayne

[msteele6]

One final observation (from me) look at the fit between the blades and the back springs, pretty tight.

Also note the pit on the back spring, unusual for a new knife, finally, if you look down into the knife, it looks like there is a considerable amount of pitting, another possible indication of age.

Again, I hate to disagree, especially with such knowledgeable collectors, but it would be nice to hear from someone who actually collects Empires (I think I have 2)

JMO

[merlechris]

Wayne, the color and texture is very close to what you posted, maybe just a tad darker but yours is more translucent (more depth).

[btrwtr]

The pitting on the interior of the main back spring is a prime indication that this knife has been taken apart or recently assembled from parts. Deep corrosion pitting with no visible active brown rust along with signs of heavy abrasive cleaning. Note the shiny areas showing scratches with no brown rust or scale. You can clean the gunk and rust from the interior without taking a knife apart but not to this extent.

Deeply corroded and subsequently cleaned interior. Shiny blades with no evidence of pitting or obvious heavy cleaning. Interior view of the blade tangs also shows no corrosion or pitting. Doesn't add up.

If I had to point out one thing that looked right about this knife I would be hard pressed to do so.

Wayne