Tip Top or Fishy?

[Dull]

Excellent, Philco.
Clearly, this man plays by his own rules at his own convenience. If he had honor he would never, not ever, sell another knife.

[knifetime]

all I can say is wow.

[zp4ja]

Hey Jon, it appears you are back for more...

My opinion, you should have "left sleeping dogs lie".

I see you have amended the original post you made today a few hours ago, below the "Clearly, he did not feel deceived".
Whether or not he felt decieved is irrelevant!
Start reading from the beginning of this post and really read it, see what you think. Whether or not he is happy with the knife now does not change the fact that "full dislosure" of a rework when you owned/sellling it was not made. The post you pointed to has nothing to do with what oocured with regards to your knowing the knife was not original and failing to disclose as such or whether it is the cat's meow now.

Please allow me to break down the history on this whole transaction, correct me if I am wrong...

1. Knife posted for possible rework on another forum, you agree.
2. 2 days later, knife is posted with a description of ""Blades are tight, with snap and half stops." No mention of a rework and certianly well short of a "story description" and not full disclosure. Not sure what "fuller disclosure" means. I assume short of full disclosure.
3. You are shocked and appalled that someone seems "entiltled" to the aforementioned disclosure.
4. Defensive
5. Defensive
6. You finally seem to come around reluctantly (momentarily it seems) and "applaud" the OP and others "not fooled" as if the to divert from your act. Smoke and mirrors. Like the ommission was some test of some sort.
7. Months later, your last response. Some act toward redemptiom which falls real short, in my opinion.

With all due respect, which is not much given the whole history, why now? It is completetely irrelevant to me whether the buyer is happy or the knife is worth a million bucks after the rework. Did not even look at the links/pics you posted.
Point is that blatant ommission of info/background on the knife occurred when you went to sell it, $1 knife or $1000 dollar knife of price realized.

As I said, my opinion, you should have "left sleeping dogs lie".

Jerry

[jon_slider]

Here is another Fishy Tip Top currently on ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/171355306413?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/ODQwWDE0NTM=/ ... ~/$_57.JPG
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTE0WDE0NDQ=/ ... G/$_57.JPG
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NDc2WDE0OTE=/ ... T/$_57.JPG

Practice reading the knife, not the description, and not the price, just the knife. What do you notice?

I have no relation to the seller, and am not asking for your opinion of his moral character. Just learn to read the knife. Here are some very useful catalogs to study.
http://www.collectors-of-camillus.us/Ca ... talogs.htm

[btrwtr]

Without the knife in hand I'd have to say I notice a pretty nice looking TIPTOP barlow.

Wayne

[jon_slider]

The number 74 on the primary Spear blade with a crescent nail nick, is not correct for a Tip Top Barlow, it should be a 10 with a long pull. The 74 blade comes from a 3 bladed model.

see http://www.collectors-of-camillus.us/Ca ... illuss.pdf
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-8BS_ ... 2520PM.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Cny2 ... 2520PM.jpg

[btrwtr]

I read the knife not the pattern number. The knife looks good to me. Maybe they put the wrong number on the blade. Wouldn't be the first time that happened. I had the same knife, same blade configuration without the pattern number. It wasn't as nice as this knife appears to be though. I believe there may be a difference between a Sword Brand master blade knife and a Camillus knife. The knives in the catalogs are Camillus marked knives, not Sword Brand.

Wayne

[jon_slider]

Yes, the catalog showing Tip Top Barlows does not use a Sword tang stamp, nor 74.

Look at the shape of the pen blade tang in this catalog pic
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Cny2 ... 2520PM.jpg

This knife's pen tang matches the catalog
http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae22 ... wwgwgp.png

This Sword bladed knife's pen blade tang, does not match the pen tang on the Tip Top in the catalog.
http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae22 ... nmrttc.jpg

I do not know there are Tip Top Barlows with Sword tang stamps and 74. Can you share a photo of one?

My impression is that the tang stamp of the sword and the number 74, are not Original to Tip Top Barlows. Please share any evidence to educate me better.

[btrwtr]

I believe you have already shared a picture of a Sword Brand TIP TOP barlow with a 74 pattern number. If you think all TIP TOP bolster knives are master blade marked Camillus or that they all have the same pen blade kicks as the one you show in the catalog you are mistaken.

Wayne

[jon_slider]

According to catalog I posted the 74 pattern refers to a 3 blade knife, that same catalog shows the pattern number for a spear bladed Tip Top Barlow is 10, and I have shown a Tip Top Barlow whose pen tang, and primary long pull spear match the catalog.

If I read you right:
1. your reading of the knife is that the 74 tang stamp is a factory mistake
2. a primary spear with crescent nick and sword stamp can also be an original Tip Top barlow configuration,
3. the pen tang that differs from the catalog can also be an original Tip Top barlow configuration,
4. I am mistaken to think the Tip Top Barlow with the 74 tang stamp is a blade swap, and
5. you have no pics or links to support your opinions

Thank You!

[btrwtr]

jon_slider,

I am saying you are comparing an apple to an orange and telling me they are not the same. I agree with you.

I wasn't sure If I had a TIP TOP barlow or not but I looked and did find 2, both 4 Line Camillus knives (notice how the color of the bone and blades don't match).

Neither of these knives meet your criteria for a legitimate example. One has the wrong pen blade (according to you) and neither has the #10 pattern number on the back of the blade. If you search somewhere other than catalog reprints you may find more examples like these.

Here are two Sword Brand TIP TOP barlows I found with no trouble on this very wonderful AAPK site.

http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... OP#p381935

http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... OP#p315230

In the past I have owned and seen Sword Brand TIP TOP barlows in different blade configurations and handle materials.

Can you tell me what the correct frame for a #74 pattern marked Sword Brand blade is? I do not know. Maybe someone out there does and will let us know.

Catalog references are great aids in identifying knives. That said, there is no substitute for seeing, handling, owning and inspecting knives first hand in order to acquire knowledge of the same.

Wayne

[zp4ja]

jon,
I don't even know where to begin on this as the post thread is all over the place.

First look up this page about 8 posts or so and read my response (^^^ that way). This reply was to the original subject/topic of the post. Any response to that? Probably not.

Secondly, let me preface the following by saying I know nothing about the maker in question. However, I do know a thing or two about knives, particularly CASE brand. I am certainly no expert. While I own a few catalogs, price lists, inventory sold sheets, etc, I use the catalogs as a "general reference" only, not certainly used to fully determine authenticity.
Correct me if I am wrong but in the catalogs you are using for reference/confirmation of authenticity, the knives illustrated are artist renderings/line drawings? I certainly would not base authenticity on that personally, too many variables. So if the tooling was changed or the artist screwed up after the catalog was printed, the artist did a revision to renderings/line drawings and the manufacturer reissued catalogs all over the place with the associated cost? Not likely. Catalogs were meant as a general reference to sell knives, not authenticate them, in my opinion.

My assumption is that all manufacturers had exceptions to the rules, as I know CASE did, based on handling, researching, studying and asking questions of others. I actually rarely reference my catalogs and price lists, especially when trying to determine authenticity, I think never on that.

Here is one never in a CASE Catalog or price list from the XX era. Mystery knife. Read down a few replies where Steve chimes in.

http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... 8&start=17

Hmmm, not in any catalog or price list that CASE had. Maybe I should just take out and put a bullet thru this (like I do with fakes) pristine authentic example since it isn't in a catalog. How about reading the knife, comparing the tooling to others like it, researching, asking experts, etc?

How about the myth that most buy into that all CASE TESTED knives never had a model stamp? Not the norm for sure but some did, I have one or two around. How about since CASE did not do model stamps as the norm in TESTED, what are the chances that the very few that they did, would have a model stamp error knife examples? Probably slim but they do exist. I don't own one but I have seen a pic of a TESTED 6172 Clasp knife (my friend owns or owned it) posted with a 6272 stamp and again, an expert chimed in that said he has seen/owned one too. Yea, probably no CASE 6272 in the catalog since they never made a two blade clasp knife and the knife has one blade.

Hmmm, note to self, send PM or email to knowledgeable collector/friend with this obviously fake POS since it is not the norm or in the catalog and offer my .308 rifle disposal services to him on an authentic classic knife that books for 3000 bucks. Free of charge of course, he is a friend altougth it may take more than one round for the the task of eliminating this POS since it has the wrong stamp and none of the books list one.

As I said, I am quite certain the examples I mentioned are not limited to CASE.

Could post more examples but I will not waste my time as this is probably falling on deaf ears, no pun intended.

I just find this post hard to digest given the fact it started with a known rework (folks reading this for the first time, start from page 1), not disclosed by the seller, no real show of accepting culpability or remorse for doing do after initially defending the act, resurrects the post months later as some failed shot at redemption, then diverts the thread with attempted schooling of the same type of knife he failed to disclose a rework on based on catalog renditions, etc.
This previous paragraph is my opinion. It is also my opinion that this post continues to be like train wreck, it just keeps going. I know my post is contributing to that but I felt it had to be said.

Jerry

[wishful]

[zp4ja]

I know Gary/wishful, too many words and all those big words can be scary. This is the second post in the last couple days with the rolling eyes emoticon in response to my post. As I said on the previous post, if you have something to say, just say it.

Seems to me some try to contribute to the forum and others don't!

[jon_slider]

Thanks for the great links and pics Wayne, much appreciated

I see from your pics that both pen tang styles were used, thanks for adding to my education

I have not been able to find a model 74 in all of the Camillus catalogs that I looked at online but the model 75 is a junior cattle knife, and has a clip blade primary with crescent nick

Also thanks for the examples of sword brand Tip Top Barlows.

Note all the Tip Tops you found are long pulls.

That leaves the model 74 Tip Top Barlow with Sword stamp, just a nail nick and the 74, from seeming like a factory configuration.

Much appreciate your contributions.

[MrBlister]

Wishful has as much right to post
HIS opinions on this witch hunt as anyone.
QUOTE " "


and 712 words does not necessarily
confirm an IQ of 712..

Villagers.... plse bring yer OWN torches..
Thank you "the Mngmnt"

Kindest Hets.... Dave

[zp4ja]

and if you look, the village idiot is pretty easy to see.

[orvet]

Gentlemen-
A reminder from the Administration of AAPK:
This is a forum to discuss knives in a civil manner.
Name calling is not allowed and insults no matter how veiled will not be tolerated.

Keep the exchanges civil and you may continue this discussion. If not, I will lock the topic, edit &/or delete posts or completely delete the topic as I deem warranted.

Thank you.

[wishful]

NOW you've done it.

[btrwtr]

jon_slider

Would you mind telling us what part or parts of the knife you posted in evidence of your buyers satisfaction are original to the knife you originally sold?

It appears to me they are 2 completely different knives. Definitely different bone, definitely different blade, definitely different bolster.

If I read you right:
1. You are saying this is the same knife.
2. You are saying your buyer has somehow communicated his satisfaction to you.
3. You are saying that "clearly he did not feel deceived".
4. You have offered no actual proof of any of this.

Here are the pictures for your reference.

Practice reading the knives. Not the seller, and am not asking for your opinion of his moral character. What do you notice?

Wayne

[jon_slider]

It appears to me they are 2 completely different knives.

Wow! I think you're right. Thanks!

Any luck confirming a Sword Tip Top model 74 Barlow is a factory configuration too?