Tip Top or Fishy?

[tstaut]

I'm strictly a novice compared to the experts here but wanted to see if my eyes deceive me.

From what I can see, it looks like the pins and scales are all shiny and new (not just shiny) and the blades look aged.

Does anyone else think this knife looks like it's been apart?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121255715294?ss ... 1423.l2648

Thanks for continuing to educate me on spotting the real things from the fakes!

[knifeaholic]

Its an old used knife that has been rehandled. The handles should be sawcut brown bone.

[btrwtr]

Rehandled. Some of these originally had slick black type handles. Blades have been repinned as you suspected. Master blade should have a Camillus stamp it looks like it may but it is very difficult to read the tang stamp. Pen blade has very little wear compared to the master. Maybe it was repinned when a newer pen blade was installed. Not a very pretty knife.

[Pocket Knife]

The seller... AAPK userid: jon_slider ... knew the knife was re-worked (he learned this on another forum where he's been a member since 2010 and has posted over 900 times). Yet, he sold on ebay with only this description:

"Blades are tight, with snap and half stops." THAT'S IT.

Yes, buyers should ask questions, know before you buy, etc, etc... but it's just this type of BS behavior by the seller that can turn new folks off from collecting vintage knives.

[zp4ja]

The seller... AAPK userid: jon_slider ... knew the knife was re-worked (he learned this on another forum where he's been a member since 2010 and has posted over 900 times). Yet, he sold on ebay with only this description:

"Blades are tight, with snap and half stops." THAT'S IT.

Yes, buyers should ask questions, know before you buy, etc, etc... but it's just this type of BS behavior by the seller that can turn new folks off from collecting vintage knives.

Well said Pocket Knife! Any lack of disclosure on a known issue for the almighty extra few dollars even at the expense of one's honor and integrity.

Name rings a big bell. He is the "Hide Signatures/Coexist" guy". When he joined the forum, his signature was detailed step by step instructions on how everyone should hide their forum signatures, yet he had a huge "COEXIST" jpeg as his signature. WHAT? I pointed out his hypocrisy and told him to shove it, in so many words.

Intentional omission of known issue with a knife is lying in my opinion, when selling. And yes, I agree, it does hurt the hobby.

Regards, Jerry

[jon_slider]

it's just this type of BS behavior by the seller that can turn new folks off from collecting vintage knives.

Your sense of entitlement is astounding. Who told you I have to disclose all my research when passing on a cheap knife? In any case, if you want to know more about Tip Top barlows, here you go:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... -or-Cabone

Sorry you are upset, if you bought my knife and are unhappy, I will take it back.

fwiw, I bought it with similar info, and only after handling it and doing my research did I determine it was a parts knife. Considering I sold it for $11.50, at a loss, it was a cheap seminar for me, and the buyer. I even included a second handle, free, as well as info on someone who knows how to reblade a knife.

I suggest you not buy any knives off ebay. They are often trashed, modified, and not original.

[btrwtr]

If you are honest and honorable you will list what you know about the knife. That is the honest and honorable thing to do.

Wayne

[jon_slider]

If you are honest and honorable you will list what you know about the knife. That is the honest and honorable thing to do.

Thank You! I was honest and honorable with the person that asked me a question whether I thought the knife was refurbished. I told him everything I knew.

I wish more people were as honest and honorable as I am. I think you will find me generous to a fault with my information. But I dont write a book when posting on Ebay...
And again, if anyone ever buys something from me that they are not happy with, I take it back, no questions asked.

[RobesonsRme.com]

No offense to you or your honorable listing/description attributes, but by your own admission in the above referenced Q&A on BladeForums re' this very knife, you were convinced it had been reworked on January 14th, which was two days before you listed the knife.

Your description did not reflect that and I suspect if someone that had not asked a question about the knife, but ended as the high bidder would likely have purchased it without you having offered the truth about the knife.

You also did not append the question and your answer to the auction so other bidders would be equally informed.

Short descriptions are one thing, but omitting the fact that you, yourself, were convinced the knife was less than authentic does not fit most definitions of honest and honorable.

If someone had paid twenty dollars for the knife, the amount would still have been low, but you still would have sold a rework without divulging the information.

I'm quite sure you believe listing your items with a minimal description and relying upon the knowledge & expertise of the bidders to protect themselves from fakes and/or reworks absolves you of any culpability.

You got burned on the knife when you bought it; I understand that, there's no need to pass that knife on to an unknowledgible buyer with a less than accurate auction description.

Just my opinion. I'm quite sure you disagree.

[philco]

There are two types of sins; those of commission and those of omission. And then there are those who adhere to "situational ethics".

[Miller Bro's]

Well said Charlie

[jon_slider]

> You got burned on the knife when you bought it; I understand that, there's no need to pass that knife on to an unknowledgible buyer with a less than accurate auction description.

Thank you for letting me know how you feel about my behavior. You make a very clear case that a reworked knife should be disclosed as such.

I did not feel I got burned, I am not a collector, I did not think I was buying a valuable collectible. The piece was very interesting for me to learn a great deal about Camillus.

I find the moral chastisement a bit hard to swallow, but thats your gift to me, I will digest it.

I applaud the OP for spotting the changes from stock condition. The knife also has a brass pivot pin, that shows in the photos. I image you would want me to disclose that also, and I understand your point from the perspective of a collector.

Other things about the knife that are marks of having been altered, is that the back spring assembly is not flush with the liners and covers.

The tang stamp corresponds to 1946-56 Camillus stamped bolster barlows, and Barlow stamped.

There is no credibility in having a jigged bone handle as original to the Tip Top line.

Well done to those of you that were not fooled into thinking this knife is an original mint condition Tip Top worth large money. otoh, it is in fact a functional knife, with no blade wobble, and a very nice long pull blade, that is sharp.

The seller and I are both happy with the price and terms of the deal. I would welcome you all continuing to learn how to spot what you call fake or counterfeit collectibles. But please don't take it upon yourself to attack me personally, as that is not the stated purpose of a discussion forum about knives.

Thank you for your measured tone, and restraint, as I know I touched a nerve, which I regret, and accept I could have avoided the problem by fuller disclosure, so thank you. Now back to learning about knives please.

[Pocket Knife]

it's just this type of BS behavior by the seller that can turn new folks off from collecting vintage knives.

Your sense of entitlement is astounding. Who told you I have to disclose all my research when passing on a cheap knife?

I pretty much expected this type of response.

Charlie said it best. I will add this:

You took the goodwill of people who helped you understand the problems with this knife and you crumpled it into a ball and threw it in the trashcan. If you don't get that (and by your responses here, I don't believe you do), then you don't deserve to be part of that community or this one.

Do you want to guess how this will go over in the feedback forum over there? Lest you think this doesn't apply, you had best read or re-read the rules over there. Pay close attention to this one: "These forums operate on honesty and integrity. As such, we have a dim view of people who act dishonestly. Your actions in the community have consequences, even if they happen elsewhere., something to keep in mind."

The knife community is a small community. Many of us belong to multiple forums. We have long memories when it comes to this type of behavior.

[reddirtknives]

Exactly how does someone go about changing their AAPK member name and what's the scoop on multiple ebay accounts?
?
I think people Coexist better when there is full disclosure of pertinent information. Had the Tip Top knife been listed in the used tool category all may have been fine but when listed in the collectibles category it's an all together different story. Granted, had it been listed in the used tool category the mentioning of it being rehandled, repinned and possibly fitted with new blades would have been a selling point and a definite plus. Personally, I think the buyer got a good deal on an old tool.

[jon_slider]

The Fishy Tip Top has been modified by my buyer to his satisfaction. Scroll down this page to see it.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... I-P!/page3

Clearly, he did not feel deceived.

I think it turned out a really nice, rehandled, debladed, repinned, long pull, spear bladed relic, pics here:
http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b49 ... cdb842.jpg
http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b49 ... c5ed7e.jpg

[Dull]

Excellent, Philco.
Clearly, this man plays by his own rules at his own convenience. If he had honor he would never, not ever, sell another knife.

[knifetime]

all I can say is wow.

[zp4ja]

Hey Jon, it appears you are back for more...

My opinion, you should have "left sleeping dogs lie".

I see you have amended the original post you made today a few hours ago, below the "Clearly, he did not feel deceived".
Whether or not he felt decieved is irrelevant!
Start reading from the beginning of this post and really read it, see what you think. Whether or not he is happy with the knife now does not change the fact that "full dislosure" of a rework when you owned/sellling it was not made. The post you pointed to has nothing to do with what oocured with regards to your knowing the knife was not original and failing to disclose as such or whether it is the cat's meow now.

Please allow me to break down the history on this whole transaction, correct me if I am wrong...

1. Knife posted for possible rework on another forum, you agree.
2. 2 days later, knife is posted with a description of ""Blades are tight, with snap and half stops." No mention of a rework and certianly well short of a "story description" and not full disclosure. Not sure what "fuller disclosure" means. I assume short of full disclosure.
3. You are shocked and appalled that someone seems "entiltled" to the aforementioned disclosure.
4. Defensive
5. Defensive
6. You finally seem to come around reluctantly (momentarily it seems) and "applaud" the OP and others "not fooled" as if the to divert from your act. Smoke and mirrors. Like the ommission was some test of some sort.
7. Months later, your last response. Some act toward redemptiom which falls real short, in my opinion.

With all due respect, which is not much given the whole history, why now? It is completetely irrelevant to me whether the buyer is happy or the knife is worth a million bucks after the rework. Did not even look at the links/pics you posted.
Point is that blatant ommission of info/background on the knife occurred when you went to sell it, $1 knife or $1000 dollar knife of price realized.

As I said, my opinion, you should have "left sleeping dogs lie".

Jerry

[jon_slider]

Here is another Fishy Tip Top currently on ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/171355306413?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/ODQwWDE0NTM=/ ... ~/$_57.JPG
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTE0WDE0NDQ=/ ... G/$_57.JPG
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NDc2WDE0OTE=/ ... T/$_57.JPG

Practice reading the knife, not the description, and not the price, just the knife. What do you notice?

I have no relation to the seller, and am not asking for your opinion of his moral character. Just learn to read the knife. Here are some very useful catalogs to study.
http://www.collectors-of-camillus.us/Ca ... talogs.htm

[btrwtr]

Without the knife in hand I'd have to say I notice a pretty nice looking TIPTOP barlow.

Wayne

[jon_slider]

The number 74 on the primary Spear blade with a crescent nail nick, is not correct for a Tip Top Barlow, it should be a 10 with a long pull. The 74 blade comes from a 3 bladed model.

see http://www.collectors-of-camillus.us/Ca ... illuss.pdf
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-8BS_ ... 2520PM.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Cny2 ... 2520PM.jpg

[btrwtr]

I read the knife not the pattern number. The knife looks good to me. Maybe they put the wrong number on the blade. Wouldn't be the first time that happened. I had the same knife, same blade configuration without the pattern number. It wasn't as nice as this knife appears to be though. I believe there may be a difference between a Sword Brand master blade knife and a Camillus knife. The knives in the catalogs are Camillus marked knives, not Sword Brand.

Wayne

[jon_slider]

Yes, the catalog showing Tip Top Barlows does not use a Sword tang stamp, nor 74.

Look at the shape of the pen blade tang in this catalog pic
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Cny2 ... 2520PM.jpg

This knife's pen tang matches the catalog
http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae22 ... wwgwgp.png

This Sword bladed knife's pen blade tang, does not match the pen tang on the Tip Top in the catalog.
http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae22 ... nmrttc.jpg

I do not know there are Tip Top Barlows with Sword tang stamps and 74. Can you share a photo of one?

My impression is that the tang stamp of the sword and the number 74, are not Original to Tip Top Barlows. Please share any evidence to educate me better.

[btrwtr]

I believe you have already shared a picture of a Sword Brand TIP TOP barlow with a 74 pattern number. If you think all TIP TOP bolster knives are master blade marked Camillus or that they all have the same pen blade kicks as the one you show in the catalog you are mistaken.

Wayne

[jon_slider]

According to catalog I posted the 74 pattern refers to a 3 blade knife, that same catalog shows the pattern number for a spear bladed Tip Top Barlow is 10, and I have shown a Tip Top Barlow whose pen tang, and primary long pull spear match the catalog.

If I read you right:
1. your reading of the knife is that the 74 tang stamp is a factory mistake
2. a primary spear with crescent nick and sword stamp can also be an original Tip Top barlow configuration,
3. the pen tang that differs from the catalog can also be an original Tip Top barlow configuration,
4. I am mistaken to think the Tip Top Barlow with the 74 tang stamp is a blade swap, and
5. you have no pics or links to support your opinions

Thank You!