Another FAKE Case Bros. Knife

[Miller Bro's]

Arathol,

You are probably correct, it could have been done with a pantograph.

I would think that if this was a factory second that the factory would have ground out the name or stamped it as a second.

Not to say an employee could have taken this stuff home and put the knife together, whatever the case to me the knife is junk!

[msteele6]

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There are some dots at the ends and turns of some of the letters which is indicative of a pantograph, but if you look there are also what appear to be dots in the middles of some of the letters. Pure chance would dictate that some dots would show up at the ends if the dots were randomly distributed.

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[arathol]

yes, theres dots in the middle of some. Random chance, yes. Thats where the engraver randomly paused for a brief second. Those dots are what you get if you don't keep the tool moving. They don't have to be at the end of a line, they can be anywhere.


Again, why would you go to the trouble to stamp a blade before you do the grind and polish. The saw-cut lines are deep, by the time you get rid of them and shape the blade and tang the stamp will be almost gone.

[knifeaholic]

That knife came from the Case factory and the stampings are factory. Compare them to other recent Case knives and you will see.

BTW, at the factory, Case stamps the tang stamping and pattern number at the same time that the blade is blanked out, before the blade is heat treated, ground, or polished. The stamp is deep enough to survive all of that. That's one reason that the insides of the letters/numbers on a Case tang stamping are black.

I have seen blades blanked at the factory and that is how they do it.

This knife is not a second, apparently someone smuggled out the parts or a partially completed knife.

[arathol]

That knife came from the Case factory and the stampings are factory

Sorry, but after seeing the huge number of "altered" blades and knives this guy has pawned off on ebay I have a hard time believing anything he sells is even close to being genuine. He is a very good at what he does, and his work has fooled a lot of people.

[knifeaholic]

That knife came from the Case factory and the stampings are factory

Sorry, but after seeing the huge number of "altered" blades and knives this guy has pawned off on ebay I have a hard time believing anything he sells is even close to being genuine. He is a very good at what he does, and his work has fooled a lot of people.

Why would he go to that trouble to phony a new knife?

[arathol]

Why? He's faked just about everything else so why not this too?

[TrentRock]

Come on guys!!!
Where ya been!!!??LOL
It's 1959Brett!!!
He's world famous for franken knives and welding blades
Buyer beware..IMHO

If you want more info
PM and I'll send ya some links
He did offer an "explanation" of sorts
"More affordable for the collector"

[knifeaholic]

I wonder why, then, that he left this particular fake knife unfinished when he finishes off all of his other fake knives.

[4ever3]

I just saw where steve posted a link to this thread. I bought the knife so we'll see what it is all about when I get it, but I believe this knife to be a Case. Only time will tell

[4ever3]

Well, I have it in my hand, and it is a Case, not sure how it got out, but it is a Case

[knifeaholic]

Well, I have it in my hand, and it is a Case, not sure how it got out, but it is a Case

I have an inquiry in to Case about these knives, so maybe we will find out how they got out.

[Miller Bro's]

He did offer an "explanation" of sorts
"More affordable for the collector"

Here is his explanation;

Quote:
"Dear Mr. Bernard Levine,

I have to say that I'm very ashamed of you and your conduct.
*First of all you've violated your 1st Forum law, No Personal Attacks.

*Second of all you're broadcasting incorrect and damaging information (Again)
to your forum readers (and others) about my knives listed on Ebay.
Even if it were true you are liable for your verbal attacks. But since they are not
I feel I have to set things straight with your readers and the general public who
you have tryed to mislead into thinking I am some kind of a counterfeiter that
makes it a point to decieve the public about what I offer up for sale.

....** "I'll speak with you in person at the Eugene Show."

I'll tell you like I tell all the others that are interested in what I'm doing that
it is my goal to purchase the best vintage knives I can find and bring them to the
Ebay market place and knife shows across the country that I attend. I can tell you
know little about knife restoration by what you're saying to your readers.
*If "I" feel a knife needs to be cleaned, I clean it, if it needs to be repaired, I send it out
to be fixed, a reblade, a patch or whatever, because I enjoy seeing a knife come to life that once was
nothing more than a thing nobody wanted. Is that so wrong? I can bring you all the testimony you want
form all over this country from people I've bought from and became friends with in the knife world.
Do you really want 500 people knocking on your forum door to speak in my behalf?? I doubt it.
I recieve hundreds of complimentory emails regarding my knife photos, service and mainly
the knives themselves. And there are 99.9% positive feedbacks to prove it. I have 100's of knife friends in the
states & several forien countries who would be glad to jump into your forum and positively testify to in regard
to my integrety & character and the false statements that you're making. WE CAN THEM LIES IN IOWA.
I think you may want to stop and rethink this matter with this added information before you make any more
trouble for yourself in that chat room, talking out of school. You've attacked my charactor and hurt my business and
it's high time you made the right move for yourself and publicly retract the lies you declared in your forum
of late about me and my inventory. You may know dates and history about knives and I appreciate that,
I have used your books for years and at times would be lost without them, BUT it's obvious that you are not
that knowledgable or you don't have a trained eye for signs of repair/restorations. Pure speculation
about it turns me into a bad guy and you into a liar. I do not decieve the publis about anything i do to or with as knife thats up for sale on ebay, but quite the opposite, I have Jim do as detailed a dscription as he can.
I think you.ve seen this and if your're honest with yourself you have to admitt we're not out there to mislead or
sell junk to anyone. It's an evolution and there was a point when i did some restoration work early on
and made a few bad calls, but I learned and moved on. I'm only trying to make a small living in the
knife business just like you. Please don't spice up yours with lies about mine. I offer the best
knives I can find and when you spend $250,000+ a year on vintage knives they are not all perfect.
I get maybe 1 in 100 returned and usually from a person with only a few feedbacks who spent too much.
And yes there are lemons. I try to hit all the bases and give the best scans and descriptions possible.

A weld job that you "detected"on the Henry Sears pen knife that I have listed is unthinkable even if
I did this type of repair. It's a $35-$50 knife. I would assume a qualified repairman would charge
2 or 3 times that much to fix it. And the Case Tested 5391 that's also listed right now that you
accused me of welding a blade on is also a REDICULOUS was purchased at a show and I can
find nothing wrong with the knife nor did I alter it in any way. It was a very expensive purchase.
A lot of my knives are.
********** I spent over $22,000 at the Eugene Knife Show last year that brought revenue to
many dealers and not to mention the communitty & surrounding areas. I also bought a new
GMC 4x4 in Salem, Oregon last April, totaling my dollars spent in your back yard around $50,000.
The year before I spent about $20,000 on knives at the show. They were all sold on ebay so some
of the knives you're pointing at could have been owned by you at some point.

NOW Bernard you can either do the right thing here and retract (OPENLY) everything negative you
said about me or we can go the low road. *First of all the Oregon knife club will be the first to here
about all that transpired and this will be printed for all members to read and form their own opinions.
*Next, there's the NKCA and not to mention every time you check my listings to decide what lies you're
going to dream up you'll have to wonder whether or not anything was printed about you....."I would'nt do it."
These things I've talked about here I will do and with NO HESITATION WHATSOEVER, you got it??

*The bottom line here is, this is all rather foolish and negative. I am a very positive person and I will not
be put through this embarssment and ridicule again. I know you're a good man I hope you make the right
choice here. I make mistakes and if in some way I've offended you please forgive me and accept my sincere
appoligy.My goal is to get to know you and become your friend. I just want to get along and promote knife collecting
in a positive way without this nonsense. I'm not a chriminal, if so every knife dealer I ever met would be guilty as well.You have knoweledge I can only wish I had. *Our views may differ but I've always respected the work you've done. Hopefully you can respect work that I do in offering the public good quality knives to fill the voids in their collections. One thing we do have in common is that we both care about knives.
*I hope that each of us retaining an attorney is'nt the second.

__________________________________________________ ______________________________

Another issue: The man who has done my listings for me for the last 2 years, Jim Mosher (Mosh45) has
branched out and I'm happy to say he's selling knives for other folks from his own account here in Sioux city, Iowa.
He is very honest and dedicated man who is concerned about what's been said in your chat room and how it will affect his business. It's obvious my business will suffer (and it has) as a resut of all of this, I can overcome that, but Jim cannot afford any financial setbacks right now. My knives will NOT be sold by him under his name, in fact I'm thinking of reducing my sales and list only several knives on ebay a week and then gradually quit.
__________________________________________________ _______________________

Thank you for taking the time to read this, I hope it makes good clear sense to you.
I look forward to seeing a retraction posted in your forum "as soon as possible".

Yours truly,
Brett Van Winkle
3800 Glen Oaks Blvd. Apt. # 138
Sioux City, Iowa 51104

[Jim Bush]

I'm having a hard time believing that an entire day has gone by, and there has not been one comment on this last letter. Either everyone has been scared off of the subject, cowed into silence, regretful of previous posts, or they agree with the author. What is it? I for one feel that if the man was once a counterfeiter, and so many of you once did, what is different now? Are all of you backing away from your previous positions, or just being silent in deference to Mr. Levine? Speak up!!!!

[philco]

Me thinks the gentleman doth protest too much!.........................

Phil

[msteele6]

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I don't think that anyone is scared, cowed, regretful, or overly deferential, it's just that the subject has been talked to death. Most of the people who post on this site followed the discussion on Mr. Levines board when it took place, and there's really little left to say.

I have purchased three knives from Mr. Van Winkle, of the three, I believe that two were all original, the third one had been "repaired" in my opinion. I often look at the knives he has for sale on Ebay and frequently see knives that I believe are original, the only problem with that is, if you don't have the knife in your hand, there are many things you can't see. One thing I believe is true, many of his knives have been cleaned, but of course that can also be said of many other Ebay sellers.

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[Owd Wullie]

IN regards to Mr Bush's response, the questions I have about Mr Van Winkle are;

1. Has Mr Van Winkle ever stated the fact that some of his knives have had blades replaced, repaired, or re-welded?
2. Has Mr Van Winkle ever stated that he has made "fantasy knives" out of parts and then described them as such?
3. Has Mr Van Winkle ever stated that because he has "cleaned up" a knife by removing enough metal to make the knife weigh considerable less than it did
when he started his "restoration" that the collector value of the knife was considerably diminished even though it looked nice?

I am relatively new to this game. I have not followed this man since Mr Levine called him out back in 2000 or 2001. I have seen knives that he has posted and advertised that were, according to far more knowledgeable people than myself, less than they were purported to be. It is also my opinion that if he does not give all the facts up front, rather than just a few juicy tidbits, then he is misrepresenting his products.

With regards to the knife posted that started this thread, Mr Van Winkle stated;

This knife measures 4 3/8". The redbone scales are nice, there is a pin crack above the lock pin on the back side, no other problems that I could see. The shield bolsters & guards are n.silver with brass liners. This knife is as crisp and tight as you'll ever find them. When in place the guards seem as though they're a part of the bolsters. The blade, pins and edges have not been finished out. The blade locks up tight but since the blade is still full width top to bottom there is no snap yet, it's too snug in the frame. Finished out this would make a nice Case, unfinished condition a little harder to find. I'd call this a factory second factory. I know it's a newer knife but I can't date it for sure. Interesting knife. Good luck.

"Finished out this would make a nice Case," . I don't think it would be a nice Case unless it was made within the confines of the Case factory. Finished out, it would be a knife with Case markings and parts. He prefers to call this a "factory second". Does Case normally let "unfinished seconds" out the door for any one to play with?

I have no idea how he conducts his business if a buyer is dissatisfied with a purchase. I see nothing in his ad that says words to the effect that if it isn't what he said, he would make it good. His feedback on ebay is exemplary. I find that interesting and makes me wonder if he is as unscrupulous as some think him to be.

Based on what I have seen here and elsewhere, I will not purchase anything from him without an ironclad guarantee that his product is what he represented it to be and upon final inspection of a knife in hand that I be satisfied.

Caveat Emptor

I'll go stand in my corner now.
Willie

[TrentRock]

His feedback on ebay is exemplary. I find that interesting and makes me wonder if he is as unscrupulous as some think him to be.

maybe he is good at making people think they got a "good" knife
All the EBAY feedback says is he is good at fooling 100% of the people

I agree though
I think he does have a FEW legit knives
It's a crap shoot..IMHO

[Miller Bro's]

I'm having a hard time believing that an entire day has gone by, and there has not been one comment on this last letter. Either everyone has been scared off of the subject, cowed into silence, regretful of previous posts, or they agree with the author. What is it? I for one feel that if the man was once a counterfeiter, and so many of you once did, what is different now? Are all of you backing away from your previous positions, or just being silent in deference to Mr. Levine? Speak up!!!!

Jim,
You have gotten some comments now!!
I posted this letter as it was e-mailed to me from a posting on Blade Forum, I am not a member there and do not have access to the whole discussion that took place.

However, I have been watching this guy for many years on e-bay. I have seen him buy damaged knives from e-bay that had broken blades, missing handles, worn out, etc. Some of these knives were made by very rare makers, rare patterns, etc. After a short period of time they would turn up for sale in amazing condition. The broken blades were now like new again, handle material replaced, whatever was damaged was now repaired and the knife looked real good.

This man calls it a "restoration", thats fine, but not once did I ever see in his description any mention of the problems the knife had when he received it. That is where I have a problem, and this is where you draw a line between honest and dishonest.

I agree with what Willie said, If he does not give all the facts about the knives he is selling up front, then he is misrepresenting his products.

Now to his feedback, I believe the feeedback is for the current year, not from the time he started selling on e-bay. If you went through all his feedback, I am sure there must be some dissatisfied buyers. Still, there must be lots of foolish, uninformed buyers that are purchasing his knives and they either don`t know the knife is fake, repaired, a fantasy, etc.

Sure he must be selling some honest legetimate knives that are original and have not been touched, but can you tell which ones they are?? Would you take the risk of spending hundreds of dollars believing the knife is real, only to one day find it is a cobbled together fake.

Caveat Emptor or Buyer Beware is an understatement!!

M.B.

[TrentRock]

Mr. Van Winkle in action

So what is it?
A Hammwalden?
Hammer Knife Co.?

[Miller Bro's]

Trent,

Hammer Brand was a trade mark used by N.Y. Knife co.





M.B.

[Blade Runner]

Concerning the original post. For a talk piece if that's what you want then OK. Beyond that even if the parts are legimate then I'm sure you'll have to concede that the assembly is not legimate. I would not recognize it as a Case, and I feel sure if you were to ask Wr Case they wouldn't either JMO

B-R

[TrentRock]

Trent,

Hammer Brand was a trade mark used by N.Y. Knife co.





M.B.

I have Hammer Brand and it doesn't say NY Knife Company
I'll look and double check

[Miller Bro's]

I have Hammer Brand and it doesn't say NY Knife Company
I'll look and double check

After N.Y Knife went out of business Imperial Knife Co. acquired the name and used this stamp
"Hammer Brand" on their cheap shell handle knives.

These knives have no association with the original N.Y. knife Co.



M.B.

[TrentRock]

I have Hammer Brand and it doesn't say NY Knife Company
I'll look and double check

After N.Y Knife went out of business Imperial Knife Co. acquired the name and used this stamp
"Hammer Brand" on their cheap shell handle knives.

These knives have no association with the original N.Y. knife Co.



M.B.

yEah
Mine are Imperial
I'm a cheapo!!!
I still like Imperials though....................